[What Came Before]

Actually, that'd probably be a good scene... bunch of skeletons forced into fixed positions within a circle - Achamian would certainly realize that that's how the Dunyain trained Kellhus to read faces and emotions.

+1, Curethan, for actual Dunyain/Achamian encounter - also, TJE/Dunyain encounter.

[What Came Before]

Not sure what the clues would be? dried leather on the bodies, but not the face? Seems too subtle for Akka to pick up on, he's not that smart...oh, that's where Mimara comes in! Mimara with her named magic swords! She got loot! LOOOOOT!

[What Came Before]

Do we know for sure that the all the Dunyain showed up to Ishual to find that boy?

[What Came Before]

We're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.

[What Came Before]

Do we know for sure that the all the Dunyain showed up to Ishual to find that boy?

Nope. Everything in the text is subject to multiple interpretations and can be considered fallible. Not much is known for fact.

[What Came Before]

Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Ishual initially kept hidden by a glamour? The validity of that statement may undermine all I'm about to put forth but speculating is what we do. If the sanctuary was indeed hidden by a glamour in the beginning I would suggest that either the extinction of its residents left no one to maintain it, or that some of those first Dunyain to discover it were of the Few. If the latter is the case that might shed some light on the number of the Few among the current Dunyain population. Now I can't remember what the likelihood of being one of the Few is, or if paternity has a propensity towards repetition, but I would imagine that two thousand years of selective inbreeding would heighten the probability of being on of the Few. Might it be the case that nearly all of Dunyain can perceive the Onta but simply in their seclusion have no concept of sorcery? Perhaps the Pragmas are aware and capable of minor sorcery, particularly maintaining the glamour surrounding Ishual, this could be corroborated by Callan's point: can only the Few receive dreams? All that said brings me to the suggestion I wished to make all along, supposing that my initial claim is true, perhaps the ruins are simply a glamour. But having written that I'm immediately struck by a contradiction, Akka should be able to see through it. Maybe his grief over discovering ruins has clouded his vision..

It makes for a lot more mystery and convoluted plot if Ishual has truly been destroyed though which seems more Bakkerian than simple misdirection. Thoughts?

[What Came Before]

I don't remember anything about a glamour at Ishual , it is hidden by natural means like the glacier.You probably got confused with Min-Uroikas which was hidden by a glamour cast by Nonmen.

[What Came Before]

We're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.

Don't be so sure....

Wait, does that even make sense?

[What Came Before]

We're sure of nothing, Garet. So many questions.

Don't be so sure....

Wait, does that even make sense?

Reminds me of the prequel to Avatar...

Batty Koda: Only fools are positive.
Zak: Are you sure?
Batty Koda: I'm positive...

[What Came Before]

Back on topic.
Not sure who knocked Ishual down, but one thing is certain.
If Akka and Mim had arrived a few months later they would have found a McDonalds.

[What Came Before]

Suppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago

[What Came Before]

I don't remember anything about a glamour at Ishual , it is hidden by natural means like the glacier.You probably got confused with Min-Uroikas which was hidden by a glamour cast by Nonmen.

You're probably right. I think I was mistaking the two now that you mention the other.

Although the Nonmen must have been involved or at least known of Ishual given the speculated tunnel between it and Ishterbinth. But if that proves untrue then forget what I just said.

[What Came Before]

Suppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago

+1. Why have Mek up there unless he's up to some evil Consulty stuff? The Inchoroi don't seem to know of the Dunyain's existence until the emergence of Anasurimbor Kellhus, though, so I'm hesitant to throw my weight behind Mek as the destroyer of Ishual -- at least at that point in the story.

What would he be up to, though? Why would Bakker have it be Mek instead of "nameless Non-man"?

[What Came Before]

Suppose Mek was headed to destroy Ishual when we experience him crossing paths with Kellhus in the prologue of Darkness. Imagine the shift in perspective if it was destroyed twenty years ago

evil Consulty stuff

Thats quite possible. Not as poetic as the dragon that Akka awoke destroying is final goal (does that fall under world conspires? I still dont get that), but and interesting idea. Maybe Mek found Ishual, or more likey a nameless Citadel, and blew it up with his gnosis powers, never mentions it to the Consult. Then the Consult find Kell and have no clue where to start looking because the only thing they can find up north is a big heap of smoking ruins, so they go searching to the west.

 :lol: evil Consulty stuff.

[What Came Before]

The Inchoroi don't seem to know of the Dunyain's existence until the emergence of Anasurimbor Kellhus, though, so I'm hesitant to throw my weight behind Mek as the destroyer of Ishual -- at least at that point in the story.

Good point. How long do you think it would take an Erratic to find a hidden location? Two thousand years lol?