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First couple times I read PON, I misread that Cnaiur had hair... I think I made the one hero at the beginning of Troy, which was a big hit around my place when I found PON, a connotation for Cnaiur, misattributing characteristics.

Mickey Rourke eh? He'd be good - Basically, him in Iron Man 2 or Immortals as Cnaiur?

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Does Cnaiur not have hair?

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Cnaiur has hair. Lol.

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guys i have a question about the Dunyain. I decided to read the series again to get pumped for The Unholy Consult which will hopefully come out this year. Anyways in the prologue of The Darkness That Comes Before and after Kellhus kills the sranc he confronts a Nonman. part of the prologue goes as follows " beneath the cloak, the man was powerfully built, heavily armoured, and from the way he comported himself, entirely unafraid. 'I see that you are a student. Knowledge is power eh?.' This one was not like Leweth. Not at all."- did the nonman's comment suggest he knows about the dunyain?? if that was the case wouldnt the Consult know as well?? someone help

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Did the nonman's comment suggest he knows about the dunyain?? if that was the case wouldnt the Consult know as well?? someone help

I don't believe anyone at the time knew who the Dunyain were. OTOH, Kellhus did know who the Nonman was either. Here's a couple links I found that may give you a better understanding than I did.

http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/mekeritrig-t1272694.html

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Cet%27ingira

Welcome to the forums!

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Tiger, I figure that the Nonmen is commenting on Kellhus' obvious training and ability; first in killing Mekeritrig's Sranc then by Kellhus' composure and perception - and ultimately, ignorance - in proximity of a Nonman: who we know as of TAE are not be fucked with.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse .

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Thanks! and i believe that the Dunyain are still alive. Im just guessing that the cloaked man at the start of the judging eye was dunyain and that the dunyain escaped destruction

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The Consult would have to be extremely stupid/shortsighted to destroy the Dunyain, IMO. As Kellhus points out to his father in TTT, any Dunyain exposed to the truth about Damnation would be compelled to pursue the same ends as the Consult.

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I've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.

But then I was not expecting two conversations to climax such momentous events... And the Wizard limped on. Cooool Guuuyys waalk away from DUNYAAAIIINNNN! And don't look back.

Lol.

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I've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.

Can you argue with his logic on this point, though? Being judged by an Outside entity and then subjected to an eternity without any personal agency seems antithetical to the Dunyain goal. Achieving mastery over all circumstance would seem to require a closed (i.e. closed off from the Outside) system.

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I've never been entirely convinced of the validity of Kellhus' thoughts at the end of the Thousandfold Thought.

Can you argue with his logic on this point, though? Being judged by an Outside entity and then subjected to an eternity without any personal agency seems antithetical to the Dunyain goal. Achieving mastery over all circumstance would seem to require a closed (i.e. closed off from the Outside) system.

Yes, with the revelation that circumstance extends beyond the mortal realm, the Dunyain would probably have to change their goal to incorporate this new set of conditions. I would think that instead of lamenting that the mortal system is not closed, they would simply extend their system to include the outside and strive to master that, too. After all, Kellhus (supposedly) ventured to the outside and performed quite well, so maybe mastery is a possibility.

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After all, Kellhus (supposedly) ventured to the outside and performed quite well, so maybe mastery is a possibility.

But Kellhus claims to be "more [than Dunyain]".

Mastery of the Outside might indeed be theoretically possible, but closing off the World from the Outside is still the shortest path. We're talking about a group that shut themselves off from history, the reality of sorcery, and the very existence of the Outside for a couple thousand years.

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First off, I doubt entirely that an entity of the Outside has actually ordained Kellhus as Fanayal, Psatma, or allegedly Fane and Sejenus. I've never boughten into the Circumfixion, that if Kellhus connected to the Outside, or been chosen by the God of Gods, it wasn't just the breaking of madness' bead, a la Achamian analogy.

There are some indications that he could communicate with a supreme entity but whether through what has come before coming all the way back or holding the next greatest abstraction, in his mind, that has ever existed in the world, giving rise to Supreme It in the world of Forms, I just don't think Kellhus or the Dunyain are there yet.

Secondly, I'm confused: why is the World to Ishual any different from the Outside to World? I mean, there is a serious break in Kellhus reasoning. Kellhus assumes he can Come Before everything, thus Conditioning Extent Reality but yet the Dunyain are not capable of this why?

In fact, Kellhus' argument rests on this shaky hinge. Why would the Dunyain decide that closing the world to the Outside would be easier rather than Conditioning the Outside too?

EDIT: And then I reread your latest, Duskweaver.

I still ain't buying. The Dunyain cannot be so enslaved by their own traditions as to not question them throughout their Project - especially to me, as I've argued in the past that the Project is doomed to failure by its seclusion unless returning to the World is a Missive.

Dunyain Nostradamus is coming .

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Dunyain Nostradamus is coming .

aka Dune Messiah.

iirc, Kellhus thinks in the prologue that the Dunyain taught that sorcery was superstition.

What if sorcery IS superstition?

Yeah it works, but its still superstition and because human understanding of sorcery is bound by custom, tradition, belief and other cultural baggage it is largely superstitious.

The Dunyain flattened out sorcery because the practice of it was entirely too crap to be allowed to endure.  The figured since its obviously part of the world, they would rebuild it from the ground up without any of the crap.  Kellhus just never got to that level.

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I like it another way that some Dunyain apostate in their past wrote a bunch of future predictions - like my previous assertion elsewhere that the Dunyain have a bunch of instructions in time-dated envelopes, which they open and follow periodically .

Do we have the quote for that in the almanac, lockesnow? There is a huge difference between Kellhus learning of sorcery from Leweth and sorcery being taught as superstition by the Dunyain.