[Madness]

That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo

I thought the SA Noosphere had claimed rights to finish the series should he pass.

[Wilshire]

Yeah but he's at a daughter now, so she'd have to let us, reguardless of how much we wanted it .

[mrganondorf]

That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo

I got to think that there's going to be an appearance of Zeumi war ships in TUC.  The whole thing about Kellhus striking a deal with Zeum and getting to take the prince along--Kellhus must have squeezed Zeum for some kind of military support, esp a navy which would come in really useful for ferrying supplies into the waste around the Ark.

Perhaps we get a backwards Tolkien moment where K is hoping to see the Zeumi ships appear and they do, but they've been highjacked by consult/ishterbinth erratics.

[Somnambulist]

That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo

I got to think that there's going to be an appearance of Zeumi war ships in TUC.  The whole thing about Kellhus striking a deal with Zeum and getting to take the prince along--Kellhus must have squeezed Zeum for some kind of military support, esp a navy which would come in really useful for ferrying supplies into the waste around the Ark.

Perhaps we get a backwards Tolkien moment where K is hoping to see the Zeumi ships appear and they do, but they've been highjacked by consult/ishterbinth erratics.

I think Nganka'kull (sp?) is possibly playing both sides.  Malowebi is with Fanayal, determining if he thinks the man can defeat Kel.  If he could, I think Zeum would support the Fanim.  If not, he might just show up to help Kel out, maybe through fear of being next on Kel's hitlist, if nothing else.

[Wilshire]

Zeumi War ships would be great, but they would either have to meet up in the Meanor (sp) or the war party would have to climb the mountains. Golgotterath is pretty well landlocked.

I agree that Zeumi (nice name recall on the leader, I would never have pulled that name out of my brain) is waiting to decide who to fight for. I think it more likely that if he throws his lot in with Kellhus, then he'll show up at the seige of Sumna/Momemn rather than at Golgotterath.

[mrganondorf]

I have to think that Kellhus got something from Zeum and all we've seen so far is the prince.

[Kosoter]

I'm thinking that the Zeumi Prince is only there all along so he can see that Kellhus was right and that the Consult are not only real but are pretty bad dudes. I definitely think that whatever happens, the Prince will be leading Zeum against the Consult in the coming wars against the Consult after the No-God comes back. It's my pet theory that that's what TWSNBN is going to be if the series doesn't end with rocks falling and everyone dying. I'd be happy with that ending too, really.

When I first read the series, I thought for the longest time that the No-God was simply a bomb and the Consult were just morons that worshipped it as a god like those nutters in one of the Planet of the Apes movies. I thought the whole thing about creating the NG and whatnot and descriptions of his carapace were just creative ways of saying they were researching some kind of bomb and the womb-plague that made everyone infertile was simply some byproduct of it like radiation. Funnily enough, I thought the stuff at the Battleplain was the result of Seswatha accidentally detonating the No-God and releasing magical fallout everywhere. It seems really funny now but that was my first impression all those years ago

My personal nerdanel for the end of the series is that Kellhus is not trying to become the NG at all despite what so many people seem to think but the opposite. I've figured souls work kind of like souls do in the Warhammer universe (if you pledge your soul to X god, it becomes part of X god, making it stronger) and that Kellhus is trying to do what the Emperor did and convince loads of people to worship him as a god and dedicate their souls to him. By feeding on those souls, he can gain power in the outside and become a god himself and then enact TTT through the hearts and minds of all people. Everyone will worship him as a god when he dies (probably at the end of the series), with the Zeumi prince going home to spread the good word of the Aspect Emperor's heroic sacrifice for all humanity. Everyone worships him, he gets to not only not be damned but to feast on everyone's soul and blot out all the other gods so only he remains. By pledging their souls to him, sorcerers escape eternal damnation...meaning what he said is kind of true and he is a prophet. A prophet of himself.

[Madness]

Yeah but he's at a daughter now, so she'd have to let us, reguardless of how much we wanted it .

Hmm. Pssh. She'll probably be a doctor or a lawyer. I can't see Bakker letting her do something impractical like writing or philosophy .

That sounds like something one of Bakker's children would write after he died. Everything there seems plausible, except, of course, comparing Kellhus to Frodo

I got to think that there's going to be an appearance of Zeumi war ships in TUC.  The whole thing about Kellhus striking a deal with Zeum and getting to take the prince along--Kellhus must have squeezed Zeum for some kind of military support, esp a navy which would come in really useful for ferrying supplies into the waste around the Ark.

Perhaps we get a backwards Tolkien moment where K is hoping to see the Zeumi ships appear and they do, but they've been highjacked by consult/ishterbinth erratics.

I think Nganka'kull (sp?) is possibly playing both sides.  Malowebi is with Fanayal, determining if he thinks the man can defeat Kel.  If he could, I think Zeum would support the Fanim.  If not, he might just show up to help Kel out, maybe through fear of being next on Kel's hitlist, if nothing else.

+1, especially the bold... I figured this was fairly obvious as Malowebi basically spells it out in WLW.

I've figured souls work kind of like souls do in the Warhammer universe (if you pledge your soul to X god, it becomes part of X god, making it stronger) and that Kellhus is trying to do what the Emperor did and convince loads of people to worship him as a god and dedicate their souls to him. By feeding on those souls, he can gain power in the outside and become a god himself and then enact TTT through the hearts and minds of all people. Everyone will worship him as a god when he dies (probably at the end of the series), with the Zeumi prince going home to spread the good word of the Aspect Emperor's heroic sacrifice for all humanity. Everyone worships him, he gets to not only not be damned but to feast on everyone's soul and blot out all the other gods so only he remains. By pledging their souls to him, sorcerers escape eternal damnation...meaning what he said is kind of true and he is a prophet. A prophet of himself.

+1 - to Warhammer analogies, to Kellhus' playing for Ascension (as I think Moenghus did by the means described), and to Kellhus dying (or faking his death) and having Zsoronga return with nothing but praise for the Aspect-Emperor.

[mrganondorf]

Hello Kosoter!!!

I have to disagree with you that the Zeumi prince is meant to be a prophet--he is exposed to too much danger to really be expected to fulfill that function.  That is not to say that he won't do what you say he will (I am nearly persuaded by your warhammer interpretation and others here speaking the same idea) BUT I don't think that is Kellhus' purpose for him.  That Proyas is being groomed to be the next Shriah is believable precisely because Kellhus is overseeing Proyas' security.  The Zeumi prince is waaay too exposed to sranc for my part.

[Somnambulist]

Mentioning Proyas, I've harbored a suspicion he may be a Judas figure in the story to come. Whether that still translates into becoming the next Shriah or not is debatable.  I think Kel is conditioning him to play another role.  He's letting P. in on too much 'truth' and doubt about Kel's supposed divinity.  Just a suspicion.

[mrganondorf]

Proyas as Judas--I never thought of that.  Could be awesome, but I can't see Proyas selling out on Kellhus unless someone tricks him into thinking he's betraying Kellhus to help Kellhus (or on Kellhus' orders).

BTW, Three Versions of Judas by Borges is short and awesome.  Found a copy here:
http://southerncrossreview.org/49/borges-judas-eng.htm

[mrganondorf]

When I first read the series, I thought for the longest time that the No-God was simply a bomb and the Consult were just morons that worshipped it as a god like those nutters in one of the Planet of the Apes movies. I thought the whole thing about creating the NG and whatnot and descriptions of his carapace were just creative ways of saying they were researching some kind of bomb and the womb-plague that made everyone infertile was simply some byproduct of it like radiation. Funnily enough, I thought the stuff at the Battleplain was the result of Seswatha accidentally detonating the No-God and releasing magical fallout everywhere. It seems really funny now but that was my first impression all those years ago

This never occurred to me--No-God as Nuke.  The Consult plan (if they had one) was to put it in the right spot at the right time, but Seswatha foiled it?  I like this idea!

[locke]

not sure where to put this, but I think Onkis is the one who founded the Dunyain.  She is literally the goddess of what comes before, and the dunyain worship the shit out of her (even if they don't know it).

[mrganondorf]

That's awesome!  Fits with in with Inrau vs Consult?  Where can I find this bit about Onkis?

[locke]

The idol was worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient Norsirai, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face—nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to break through her frozen hair. Her image never failed to stir something within him, and this is why he always returned to her: she was this stirring, the dark place where the flurries of his thought arose. She came before him.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 122). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

Also of interest:

braziers. The columns soared up to support the clerestory, the raised central section of the roof, too high for the light to reach. To either side of the clerestory aisle were two more rows of lesser columns, flanking the small godhouses of various Cultic deities. Everything seemed to be reaching, reaching. He placed an absent hand on the limestone. Cool. Impassive. No sign of the great load borne. Such was the strength of inanimate things. Give me this strength, Goddess. Make me as a pillar.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 121). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

With a single outstretched hand, Paro Inrau followed a pillar to the earth.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 128). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.