[What Came Before]

Its interesting that most of us speculators lead with the assumption that Moenghus and Kellhus lie (despite the fact that they are always shown to prefer to use the truth and allow individuals to decieve themselves) and that the Consult always speak the truth.

What if the Inchies were flat out wrong? 
Let's say they irrevocably damned themselves and sealed off the outside on their home planet, found that didn't help and then started their interplanetary genocidal quest.
Every planet they come to, they believe that THIS is the promised land, this time they will save their souls, and every time they are wrong and their souls just get damned to some other hell which they then track using the IF.

Perhaps the existence of sorcery there, and the consult's subsequent invention of the No-god is what makes Earwa different - this time they have an actual chance only because they can create an alternate outside.  (which would mean they are lucky they didn't defeat the Nonmen first up)

Now, my initial speculation that the bottomless pit might be a biosphere for Wutteat and his kin was based on the fact that he is a creature of the sky - the walls would provide nesting places and there is NO GROUND.  Thinking further, Shae has adopted it because it provides a means for him to avoid death via his soul trapping and who else do we know of that cannot die?  Wutteat...

[What Came Before]

Firstly, I think the only commentary that Moenghus or Kellhus made on the Inchoroi specifically is when Kellhus is interrogating Esmenet Compulsed by Aurang.

I think, Curethan, that we're all, every reader, subject to the game of greater frames, the Layers of Revelation, that Bakker is using to toy with ambiguity.

The False Sun has offered us a greater reversal or inversion of objectivity within the books... which, we're interested in for some reason.

Honestly, you'd be surprised how much I view the interpretations we consensually commit to, the validations we provide, as more important than the text...

Bakker keeps providing an alternate truth and we seem to cling to those most novel.

What does it mean?!

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I would argue that Earwa is the only Ground by your connotation - despite our theorized attempt at making the Ark a Ground where Damnation didn't apply.

Maybe. Shaeonanra's explanation in The False Sun is hamstrung by the problem that his culture apparently has only one word to cover the concepts of "big ball of rock floating in space", "society with its laws and customs", "reality with associated physical laws" and "divine creation and its metaphysics, including the rules determining damnation and salvation".

That whole conversation in The False Sun feels a little like we're listening in to someone attempting to explain M-theory to a caveman.

Inchoroi have a homeworld. Some plucky fuck invents/discovers a technology/portal/tear/hole that results in the revelations of the Inverse Fire. Inchoroi are Damned and mistake their world for a Ground.

*Nods* They assume their world's metaphysics are unique and that they can be escaped through mere physical distance. And/or they assume any world has its own unique set of metaphysics, and that creating a new world to their own specifications (literally playing God) will allow them to choose that artificial world's metaphysics.

- Minor nitpick as I'm constructing this but anyone have any theories on whether the Inverse Fire shows my Damnation vs. Damnation itself?

I don't think that's a minor nitpick. I think that's one of the most important "known unknowns" (things we know we don't know) in tSA right now.

The impression I get is that the IF lets you experience your own personal damnation. Just being a window into Hell doesn't seem like it would have the deep psychological effect it is described as having. So, a genuinely non-damned person looking into the IF would presumably see Heaven instead.

But my gut feeling is that damnation is pretty much the default in Earwa. IIRC, the only person Mimara has ever seen with the Judging Eye who isn't damned is herself.

Imagine a scenario where the Judging Eye could look on the Inchoroi-who-discover-IF before they attempt anything to free themselves and they weren't Damned under its gaze, despite the "truth" of the Inverse Fire.

Which would mean they damned themselves by the actions they took to escape the damnation they wrongly assumed they were already destined to? And then carried that damnation to other worlds by interfering with those worlds' cultures, preaching the 'reality' of damnation and persuading people to betray and murder each other in self-defeating attempts to achieve a false 'salvation' that's not even necessary?

That's probably what I'd do if I were writing tSA. I don't think RSB shares my deep-seated-and-probably-not-very-psychologically-healthy hatred of religion, though, so I don't think that's the route he's going to take.

This is something that bothers me. Does Shaeonanra, as I feel, have only the word of the Inchoroi that what he experiences in the Inverse Fire is what he will in fact experience when he dies because of his actions in life and the narrative of the Tusk or does Shaeonanra (or whoever) experience the truth of their personal Damnation when they experience the IF? The former gives even more credence to the Second Imperative theory, that the Inchoroi also added Sorcerers as Unclean to the Tusk.

I think, at the very least, the IF itself must utterly convince you that what you're experiencing is genuinely your own damnation. If it were just a matter of the Inchoroi telling you that it's true, then what's the point of the IF at all?

I don't give any credence to the Second Imperative theory, incidentally. Bakker outright told us that the bit about the Nonmen was the only thing the Inchoroi added to the Tusk. Everything else was just a record of the already-extant beliefs and laws of the Men of Eanna (and, really, the idea that a bunch of devout pre-literate savages wouldn't already have a proscription against sorcery is pretty absurd).

Back to: the Inchoroi decide that nothing they do on their world is helping so they try and make the Ark - perhaps, it is a biological machine, which informatically stores their consciousnesses, and birthed physical clones back onto the Ark.

Serious shades of Warhammer 40,000 again. The Eldar created living biotech world-ships to store their souls, in order to escape the damnation brought about by their own carnal excesses.

Perhaps, they felt this process would sever the connection and allow them to go onto a new world free of their Damnation. Yet like a tv with one channel... the IF still showed damnation.

They made the same assumption a lot of readers did initially: that damnation is local. Maybe that old theory that the Inchoroi are future Earth-humans isn't so far-fetched, after all...

This is where I have to distinguish between our perspective and theirs. Aurang says "This Ground" is not like other Grounds. Within the context of my summary, Aurang most certainly has been previously referring to all planets as Grounds and doesn't actually understand the distinction as you make it.

Yeah, maybe the misunderstanding wasn't Shae's, but was actually a result of the Inchoroi (then) having only an incomplete understanding of what they were trying to explain to him. (Or the Inchies just referred to all planets as "Grounds" because of the limitations of Shae's language.) Aurang certainly seems to understand the distinction by the time he speaks in The False Sun, though.

They keep hunting world after world, following some prophecy about 144,000 but no world is a Ground as you've defined it until Earwa.

This puzzles me a bit. I have literally no idea how the Inchoroi could have come up with the idea that reducing a world's population to 144,000 would close it off from the Outside. I kinda think this was just RSB being too clever for his own good and shoe-horning a cool-sounding biblical reference into the story without any real thought behind its plausibility.

I think, Duskweaver, you and I are able to make the distinction you are because we can view the narrative without. Perhaps, Aurang and the Consult have come in time to recognize Earwa as the only Ground (read Topoi, basically, if I understand your metaphysical connection correctly) and all other Grounds as physical grounds or worlds.

Hmm. I'm not sure 'Ground' is any more interchangeable with 'topos' than it is with 'planet'. There's obviously a connection, though, and I suspect Earwa is the only place in the universe where topoi can form.

On the other hand, part of me wants to say the IF is a sort of controlled topos, which would disprove that idea...

It seems Onkis usurps Yatwer as this aspect, good sir.

For Inrau, maybe. But Yatwer still serves as a handy metaphor for the inescapable influence of our genetic/biological makeup.

[What Came Before]

The impression I get is that the IF lets you experience your own personal damnation. Just being a window into Hell doesn't seem like it would have the deep psychological effect it is described as having.

Just on this part, there is that quote from Bakker where he says that the Scarlet Spires' records show that Damnation is different for each person.
I think the IF shows each veiwer the same damnation, which is why they see it as the truth.  Which is why I suspect the IF is also a neural cookie cutter - all its, erm, patients' ... souls become the same grotesque shape.
The SS haven't come to the same conclusions after all, or Iyokus would've been whole a lot nastier than he was and probably run off with the first skin spy he could find.

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I don't give any credence to the Second Imperative theory, incidentally. Bakker outright told us that the bit about the Nonmen was the only thing the Inchoroi added to the Tusk. Everything else was just a record of the already-extant beliefs and laws of the Men of Eanna (and, really, the idea that a bunch of devout pre-literate savages wouldn't already have a proscription against sorcery is pretty absurd).

...

Serious shades of Warhammer 40,000 again. The Eldar created living biotech world-ships to store their souls, in order to escape the damnation brought about by their own carnal excesses.

Big old +1 to your post, Duskweaver, but I wanted to address these two points specifically. Like your thoughts, I will mull them over.

The latter is just such an awesome conception. I love when Warhammer writers hit their stride and reading the universe can really be awe inspiring - though some of it is total crap. It just takes one alien species to make Xenocide it's special ambition and the rest of would have to make the decision to fight or perish .

The thing to remember, though, and we have very little textual evidence of this, though I could go digging on another occasion: Shaman.

Apparently, some of the Prophets of the Tusk were the perfect balance of Sorcerer and Prophet. If I remember right, there is even an obscure thread on the old Three-Seas where White Lord (much love wherever you are) got Bakker discussing power struggles among the Five Tribes between the generic Prophets and the Shamans.

[What Came Before]

The idea of the Ark being some kind of early solution to their little damnation situation is a good one,I like it however it still begs a question:Do the Ichoris born from it and within it really count as the same race as the ones who made the ark and were born another way before it was made ?

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I'd say, at least in a physical sense, yes. Like clones or any kind of artificial insemination, though created in a tube and not organically, the products of such science are made to be the same as the template.

Same question different universe:
Are the tleilaxu spawned from their axlotl tanks still the tleilaxu? (couldnt help myself)

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I'd say, at least in a physical sense, yes. Like clones or any kind of artificial insemination, though created in a tube and not organically, the products of such science are made to be the same as the template.

Well yes and no:yes in the physcal sense they might be the same as the original ones before any modification,however they are also different since unlike the original ones,they are incapable of reproducing by themselves and are completely depedent of the ark for this,furthermore it is also highly possible that the ark used to grow it's children with predefinite roles.

Same question different universe:
Are the tleilaxu spawned from their axlotl tanks still the tleilaxu? (couldnt help myself)

Well it is a bit different when you know the nature of their axolotl tanks.

[What Came Before]

But it could have always been that way. The Inchoroi could have just been a weapon race that got out of hand and killed their masters and set off on their own to find a haven. They may have never been able to do much on their own.

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Which brings us back to my automata theory that they are not a natural race but creations of someone else,the product of Tekne themselves...Well at a higher level that the vestigial one they currently use.I wonder if they tried to fill the gaps in their remaining Tekne knowledge with Apropos and  Mangaecca sorcery BTW

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I just sort of love how we're all using Ark, when biblically, Noah and his family used the Ark to escape damnation as well.

so to speak.

crackpot--unholy consult ends with a tsunami flood that drowns the entire world, caused by arks of other species crashlanding onto the planet, ala planet killing asteroids.

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I just sort of love how we're all using Ark, when biblically, Noah and his family used the Ark to escape damnation as well.

Biblically, an Ark is both "a colossal ship used to escape a world-breaking cataclysm" and "an ornate box made to contain a culture's most holy artefacts".

The word comes from the Latin arcus ('vessel', 'coffer'), though the Turkish translation would be tekne.

planet killing asteroids.

Looking at that map with all the impact craters, this may have happened already.

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wow Dusk, you and your latin and other translations. Thats really interesting

[What Came Before]

+1 for forum apokalypsis. We can't simply think all these thoughts for ourselves .

[What Came Before]

I just sort of love how we're all using Ark, when biblically, Noah and his family used the Ark to escape damnation as well.

Biblically, an Ark is both "a colossal ship used to escape a world-breaking cataclysm" and "an ornate box made to contain a culture's most holy artefacts".

The word comes from the Latin arcus ('vessel', 'coffer'), though the Turkish translation would be tekne.

planet killing asteroids.

Looking at that map with all the impact craters, this may have happened already.

What has come before determines what comes after. 

So if this has happened before...

I was referencing the thread that was about all those craters. :p  what if it's all for naught and everyone dies in the end because of a biblical flood.

And I specifically said that Noah escaped damnation on the ark because I was twisting it.  You could say the whole Lot were damned to death and God only 'saved' Noah, surely, none of those who were slain by the righteous and mighty hand of God were saved and wound up in heaven.  Nay, they were all damned, and sent to hell via a watery route.

In any event, I love your take on the ark, as simultaneously a way to escape a planet killing cataclysm and the receptacle holding the holy of holies.

Also that Turkish is amazing. Oh Bakker.