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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by SmilerLoki on October 12, 2021, 03:02:34 pm »
Wutteat was apparently found somewhere in the void and tagged along
Let's say he was on the Ark before the Fall, there is no real data as to how and why.

My point being that we know that Skin Spies do not have souls and imo they are smarter than Wracu
The inability of skin-spies to comprehend paradox is pretty damning smarts-wise. In this sense they seem to be a stand-in for real-world psychopaths, who you can spot fairly easily if you know what to look out for. They try to counter that by only interacting with others superficially, but that fails the moment anyone presses the issue with them.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Wilshire on October 12, 2021, 12:46:55 pm »
Wracu were created on Earwa just like the rest of the weapons races, iirc. Wutteat was apparently found somewhere in the void and tagged along, but the Wracu were created to fight the Quya, which would have been centuries after The Fall once the Inchoroi exhausted their other weapons.

The Wracu are also controlled by the No God, just like the other races. They might be more intelligent than sranc, for example, but we have seen high levels of intelligence from skin-spies. Maybe even more so - they are in fact so intelligent that no one can tell they are fakes based on their behavior or speech. My point being that we know that Skin Spies do not have souls and imo they are smarter than Wracu, so it seems unlikely that Wracu have souls - especially since their behavior is so bestial compared to the skin-spys.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by SmilerLoki on October 12, 2021, 07:07:26 am »
Selective breeding is basic biological selection, and given the rest of Scott's work, overwhelmingly likely to have been employed.
Wilshire's right, the variety of traits Wracu possess makes it demonstrably unlikely. Selective breeding produces similar-looking creatures, not extremely diverse ones.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Cynical Cat on October 11, 2021, 11:18:47 pm »
The Wracu are not like skin spies, sranc or bashrag because their original template was created at the height of their arts.  The others were kludged out using what remained of their knowledge and technology after the Ark and over 99% of their people were dead.  They were still capable of impressive feats of biological engineering, but with seemingly high rates of failure.   The pits they fill with the failures and the low survival rate of the grafting of the abilitly to perceive the Onta are indicative of that. 

Selective breeding is basic biological selection, and given the rest of Scott's work, overwhelmingly likely to have been employed.  It seems likely that their ability to produce Wracu was flawed with the loss of the Tekne, given the high mutation rate which suggests a significant number of nonviable dragonlings going into the pits as failures.  However the presence of young Wracu during the Apocalypse means that the Wracu can either breed among themselves or the Consult acquired the knowledge with which to produce them.

As for being ensouled, the Consult overwhelmingly want little of that and they want iron control over their creations.   The Wracu are different as they are few enough in number that their souls would not interfere with plans and their powerful abilities would be better deployed by a creature not totally ruled by their instincts.   It may also, given their connection to Outside, be essential for them.   

I'm not able to produce any quotes supporting the rare souled sranc or bashrag at the moment.  It was ages ago, spun off from the discussion of ensouled animals IIRC.   My memory may be faulty, of course but it makes logical sense.   I'll keep looking and see what I can produce.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by H on October 11, 2021, 02:35:49 pm »
Indeed, my own personal theory, based off nothing but maybe circumstantial evidence at best, is that the Inchoroi themselves know very, very little of the Bios.  It was likely Ark itself that it most of the work, pre-Fall.  But Wracu are post-Fall creatures, since at the Fall only Wutteät seems to have been around.

This is what makes me favor idea that Wracu, like Sranc and Bashrags and "hacked" in the sense of not being totally "original" creations, but manners of recombining and reconstituting existing designs.  Where Sranc and Bashrags debase Nonmen genetics, I think, in my opinion, it is likely that Wracu are a sort of debased combination of Wutteät's and Inchoroi genetics, since that is what was likely at hand.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Wilshire on October 11, 2021, 01:26:31 pm »
I'm pretty sure that if the Inchoroi could have created a great deal of skin-spy schoolmen, they would have. That they did not is proof that they cannot. The same goes for Wracu. They created the wracu to compete with the Nonmen Quya. If they were able to make more effective tools that could compete directly, meaning with the use of better and stronger magic, they would have. But again they didn't, which to me clearly means they cannot.

The Inchoroi themselves are a created ensouled race - or appear to be. But they were definitely not given the tools to make ensouled weapons-races themselves. The Inchoroi themselves know very little other than what the proginators gave them, and I doubt the proginators wanted their weapon-race to be creating a bunch of ensouled being and leaving them around the galaxy.

Regarding wracu breeding, its extremely unlikely the Inchoroi were using animal husbandry to create wracu. For one, they appear to be very divergent as individuals which is basically impossible with selective breeding (we don't have dogs that have 85 legs or that can breathe underwater). There are also simply not enough wracu for it to be possible for some kind of breeding system to have taken place. I also think they have a lifespan that is far to  great to make breeding in the few thousands years they've had on Earwa to be in the cards. Its really just not possible all around.

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by SmilerLoki on October 10, 2021, 12:52:29 pm »
Bakker has mentioned that some apes and whales as well as a the rare Sranc or Bashrag have souls.
I remember Bakker saying that an occasional animal can develop a soul, but nothing about Sranc or Bashrag doing the same.
Quote from: R.Scott Bakker
The idea has been that only the rare animal ever 'awakens' enough to develop a soul in Earwa, but that's not something I've ever explored to date
https://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2083.msg31786#msg31786
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Cynical Cat on October 10, 2021, 11:16:22 am »
One should remember that the Inchoroi didn't want to create large number of souled beings.   That they are incapable is purely our projection on the text and contradicted by the existence of rare souled members of the Weapon Races.  The Wracu, unlike the Sranc or Bashrag, would in exist in numbers small enough that their possession of souls wouldn't endanger the plan.   There's another data point in favor of them having souls, namely the conversation Akka has the with scalpers in The Judging Eye.  A dragon would choose to withdraw from men it didn't want to confront instead of being driven by its instincts to fight them.

Bakker has mentioned that some apes and whales as well as a the rare Sranc or Bashrag have souls.  Sranc and Bashrags have language and tool use, but are ruled by their instincts and appear to have no capacity for introspection or reflection.   Wracu seem, like the Inchoroi, to possess similar instincts (plenty of sadism is on display in their interactions and they seem to love cruel word games) but can choose how they act.  They seem tied to the No God by allegiance to a common cause, not puppets that the No God can shout through.

The Wracu are clearly an engineered race, but one based on a template created by high level biological mastery and then derived using cruder methods and selective breeding.  They are unlikely to be "cybernetic" as opposed to having a biology that concentrates iron in the bones and so forth.  They are also products of a people who know about the Outside and have technology that can contact it to some degree but do not have sorcery.   They are likely something like biological warmachines connected to the Outside.

It is also important to remember that Chorae do not salt practitioners of the Psuke.  The Psuke is close enough to sorcery that the Chorae still block it and are lethal to its practitioners, but the effects are not the same.  The Wracu are likely close enough to sorcerers that Chorae are mildly toxic to them.
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What passes for a soul for a Skin Spy (remembering that one of them, admittedly an outlier, could perform sorcery) may not be easy to distinguish from a weak souled human.  This could also be true only up to a point, allowing a Cishaurim to recognize Skin Spies by their souls once he knew what he was looking for.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by Cynical Cat on October 10, 2021, 10:36:23 am »
With regard to the issue of killing Kelhus as Daglaish, recall that the Consult intends to have two of his children in the possession of their Nonmen allies at the time.  Even if they do kill him, their will be multiple survivors of his bloodline.
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