[Sausuna]

Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

There is the possibility some of the Quya survived the Battle as well?

Not quite what I meant. I mean that the chance of survival for an ordinary Ordealsman would probably be to burn and eat a Quya. Though, assuming they want to chance 'The Ash' instead of 'The Meat'. But yes, I suppose it is possible some Quya survived. But I rank it unlikely as even the organized Sorcerers were ravaged by the organization of the No-God Horde. Their disorder would likely make retreat difficult.

Though, I suppose the No-God is the worst horrible memory any of them might have faced before. So it could refocus them, perhaps.

[Madness]

Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

There is the possibility some of the Quya survived the Battle as well?

Not quite what I meant. I mean that the chance of survival for an ordinary Ordealsman would probably be to burn and eat a Quya. Though, assuming they want to chance 'The Ash' instead of 'The Meat'. But yes, I suppose it is possible some Quya survived. But I rank it unlikely as even the organized Sorcerers were ravaged by the organization of the No-God Horde. Their disorder would likely make retreat difficult.

Though, I suppose the No-God is the worst horrible memory any of them might have faced before. So it could refocus them, perhaps.

Lol, I'd imagine the Nonmen wouldn't be thrilled with Achamian's use of Nil'giccas and Cu'jara Cinmoi before him, much less if he disseminated that knowledge to the Ordeal.

+1 on the thought regarding the No-God snapping the Cunoroi back to present.

[Lonnie Slidell]

Philosophical zombies, anyone?  A world that was shut might simply become like our world, inhabited by beings who are sentient but have no souls.

[Wilshire]

Philosophical zombies, anyone?  A world that was shut might simply become like our world, inhabited by beings who are sentient but have no souls.

p-zombies have been brought up several times before, but I'm not the person to have that conversation (I don't get it).  You're on the right track though, I think.

[TaoHorror]

Hmm, think I'm getting lost with the recent comments ( which is quite in character for those of you who know me ). Are we saying that if the world is "shut", the remaining denizens won't have a soul anymore ( ergo, p-zombies )? I just thought the souls would be "trapped" on Earwa - where else would they go if they couldn't reach the Outside?

[Wilshire]

I believe the train of thought is this:

Gods make Meaning, Meaning makes Sorcery. No Gods, no Meaning, no Magic.
In the same vein, The Outside makes Souls, Souls inhabit Bodies. No Outside, no souls.

I'm not sure that makes sense either - but that seems to be what people are saying, maybe.

[MSJ]

I believe the train of thought is this:

Gods make Meaning, Meaning makes Sorcery. No Gods, no Meaning, no Magic.
In the same vein, The Outside makes Souls, Souls inhabit Bodies. No Outside, no souls.

I'm not sure that makes sense either - but that seems to be what people are saying, maybe.

I won't argue you're line of thinking, it makes sense and seems obviously....correct. But, while the Womb Plague is happening, the Outside has never been shut. Not now, not during the First Apocalypse.

I think Bakker's answer about when the Inchies inoculated the Nonmen and "found" that the side effect killed women, "the found a crude tool for at least part of the No-Gods function.'. Its why I can't reckon that last part of the statement. No Outside, no souls. Because, the Outside isn't shut. Its something else. What? I've no clue, but it goes directly in with TNG and is, imho, a bio-weapon of some sort.

[Wilshire]

MSJ, I don't think p-zombies (which I don't understand anyway) are different than the mechanisms used for shutting the world. Like, an effect of what happens post-Consult victory.

I also think you're combining two separate events. There's the time that the Inchoroi killed all the women, and the time that all human babies were born sterile. The first event the Inchoroi physically "inoculated" all the non-people to make them immortal - and it killed the women. The second event, something weird happened connected to the rise of the No-God, and all babies were born dead.

Not that this is the right thread, lol, but you don't think the dead babies are a meta-physical phenomenon? You think its strictly biological - some kind of world wide virus (or whatever) that kills all the unborn?

[Moosehunter]

Not that this is the right thread, lol, but you don't think the dead babies are a meta-physical phenomenon? You think its strictly biological - some kind of world wide virus (or whatever) that kills all the unborn?

I've always suspected that Bakker didn't think this one through when he came up with it.

Is the world sealed when we reach 144k souls remaining or is it permanently closed when we reach that figure?

The fact (well, according to the dragon) that souls "pass no further" when the No God is active suggests that the Outside is closed immediately upon resumption. If souls cannot get out then possibly souls cannot get in and that is why all babies are stillborn.

However i would not have thought that souls were linked to consciousness given that the weapons races are conscious but soulless , and some nonmen are still conscious but their souls have achieved oblivion. I may have misinterpreted the nonman part however.

Do souled races operate to different rules? Did Bakker mistakenly not flesh out the idea properly during the PON trilogy? Or is it intentionally vague? I really wouldn't care what the answer was if i thought we would ever get an answer.

[Wilshire]

Comes down to the age old question, what is the no-god? Many think its some kind of soul vacuum. Given TUC, at least Ajokli was able to very directly interact with Celmomas, so it seems that while the no-god interrupts the outside in some way due to the whole no babies thing, the Gods are still able to interact. And, obviously, magic still works too. So its not a simple open/close dichotomy - probably something more like a bad connection to a cellphone tower. You can still get service, but its intermittent and/or weak.

[MSJ]

I actually have no dann clue. I'm actually with Moosehunter. Because, Bakker's answer suggests that from the Inoculation, the Consult found a "dread weapon for at least part of the No Gods function.". I can't reckon the the text with that answer. I'm with you, the text seems to suggest metaphysical, Bakker's answer though physical. To me, they don't align and its why I take every answer from Bakker with a grain of salt. Cool answer to a question, doesn't back itself up in the text and we get a lot of those. :shrugs:

I've been trying to parse between the two for a long time now. And, again, I think Bakker is more Ajokli than Kellhus...

[MSJ]

By the way, I don't mean to insult Bakker's intelligence, I think that's unquestioned. Its just I don't think he ever expected this level of scrutiny. He has ALOT of cool ideas, that never get fleshed out. "No questions about haloes!", to me, is a misdirection on his part. He ain't answering it until he has the proper answer.

I'm sorry to put it this way. But, I've been around a lot of very intelligent human beings and when they underestimate you, they think they can Bullshit you. That's my vibe. I think everything from the metaphysical to the physical is intentionally vague and contradictory that he thought we'd be confounded and overlook, or forget. Thats the only way I can reckon most of his answers to questions, against the text. Then some make sense. Which confuses the fuck all outta me. So, I know the man is unquestionably intelligent.

[Wilshire]

I actually have no dann clue. I'm actually with Moosehunter. Because, Bakker's answer suggests that from the Inoculation, the Consult found a "dread weapon for at least part of the No Gods function."

That's what I'm saying - the Inoculation was a drug of some description the Inchoroi used on the Nonmen. This is not the same thing as the womb plague.

"dread weapon for at least part of the no gods function" - I don't know the context of this, so correct me if I'm wrong. To me "dread weapon" is an indication that the Inoculation, which killed half the nonmen and stopping them from breeding, helped accomplish the 144k goal. The 144k being 'part of the no gods function'.

All of that is physical/biological/mundane warfare. Remember the No-God wasn't even in play during the Inoculation. The Inchoroi still hadn't realized that their 144k plan needed something more - specifically the No-God - to shut the world (which is why it hadn't worked prior to earwa).

I can't reckon the the text with that answer. I'm with you, the text seems to suggest metaphysical, Bakker's answer though physical. To me, they don't align and its why I take every answer from Bakker with a grain of salt. Cool answer to a question, doesn't back itself up in the text and we get a lot of those. :shrugs:

I still think you're confusing two separate things as one event. The Womb Plague only happened when the No-God came, and has nothing to do with the inoculation. Unless the quote is specifically referring to the Womb Plague and not the inoculation, I don't see the conflict.

Bakker...

I think he spent a lot of time and effort preserving the mystery and probably will never want to do a 'tell all Q/A'. His answers are to vaguely clear up mistakes/miscommunication without giving it away. A magic trick only works if you can see the magician but don't know the trick - so if Bakker reads a question and realizes that the curtain was still down when he did the trick, he tries to tell us what we should have seen, which isn't to say he's giving an answer.

Hopefully that makes sense. The text is unquestionably supposed to be a riddle or some kind, and it also unquestionably has mistakes and wasn't executed perfectly. Asking for answers puts him in a awkward position of trying to re-explain what he was trying to do without giving away the secret. So yeah, his answers are cagey and often unsatisfying.

Also, I think he expected scrutiny, but doubt he expected that he himself would have to answer to it lol. So his words end up being a bit of a contradictory mess. A cagey off-the-cuff answer isn't going to be as fleshed out as his books, and he often ends up making the confusion worse . I give him the benefit of the doubt though -definitely possible that he's just a dick .

[MSJ]

Lol. I don't think he's a dick. I just think if he doesn't have something fleshed out, he'll toss you scraps and expect you to be satisfied.  When its all too fucking complicated, to make sense to my tiny brain.

The haloes. You know where I think he ducked up and can't reckon an answer? The skin-spy. How can the skin-spy recreate it? Then someone as holy as Mimara having haloes, but different color? I think any answer he gives will breakdown because an unsouled being had the effect. Just my opinion.

No, I'm not conflating two seperate events. What I took from his answer was that the Inchies found out something they could use, in part, with the No-God. Two separate events, sure. But, his answer makes it seem if they found a way to accomplish the no babies part, that's the implication I got from the question and the answer. 

[TLEILAXU]

I actually have no dann clue. I'm actually with Moosehunter. Because, Bakker's answer suggests that from the Inoculation, the Consult found a "dread weapon for at least part of the No Gods function."

That's what I'm saying - the Inoculation was a drug of some description the Inchoroi used on the Nonmen. This is not the same thing as the womb plague.

"dread weapon for at least part of the no gods function" - I don't know the context of this, so correct me if I'm wrong. To me "dread weapon" is an indication that the Inoculation, which killed half the nonmen and stopping them from breeding, helped accomplish the 144k goal. The 144k being 'part of the no gods function'.

All of that is physical/biological/mundane warfare. Remember the No-God wasn't even in play during the Inoculation. The Inchoroi still hadn't realized that their 144k plan needed something more - specifically the No-God - to shut the world (which is why it hadn't worked prior to earwa).

What makes you think that? Ark was in control before the crash, why would you assume it didn't know about the No-God? This is what Aurang says in The False Sun:

“Other Grounds?” Titirga cried with a derisive bark, and why not? when the Ground was by definition the basis of everything. It was just as Aurax had said. Truth becomes ignorance when Men make gods of Deceit.

“I know how this sounds,” Shaeönanra said. “But what of the Ark? The Inchoroi? They prove the existence of other Grounds, do they not? Grounds like our own!”

“Noooo…” the glistening Inchoroi rasped, speaking an archaic intonation of Ihrimsu, his inhuman voice falling like a flake of ice upon sweaty skin. He had stepped into Shaeönanra’s blind flank and now loomed over him, his frame a sleek motley, like fish skinned and sutured together. “Not like your own.”

The Hero-Mage fairly gaped at the creature.

“It speaks to me.”

“This Ground …” Aurang continued, oblivious to his transgression. “This Ground is the one Promised. Salvation lies within your grasp. Salvation in this life…”