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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterebinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by The P on May 26, 2021, 12:47:11 pm »

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.

They even say as much:
Quote
“And you think I’m the missing piece?” Kellhus asked. “The Subject that will revive this ... system?”

Was that why the Chorae had been removed from the Carapace? For him? It seemed to Malowebi that he strangled ...

The nearest of the disfigured Dûnyain, the burnt one, nodded. “The Celmomian Prophecy foretells your coming, Brother.”

Still not convinced.  I will try to put out my thoughts.  I'm erratic and in sore need of a reread.  If the Celmomian Prophesy is the basis for their "knowledge" of needing Kellhus as an insertant, they are making some intense cognitive leaps (which I guess maybe I can't be expected to understand, them being Dunyain and all).  All the prophesy says is an Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world.  I don't think there's any more to it, since we are shown the scene where Celmomas says it to Seswatha.  That's so vague, it could mean any of the many Anasurimbors running around, why decide on the most difficult to grab?  I take the disfigured's nod to be more saying, "well, here you are, so we're going to plug you in and see what happens."

If they really think the Anasurimbor lineage is the key to awakening the No-God, why aren't they plugging in one of their own?  Surely at least one of the disfigured has some Anasurimbor blood in them.  If they knew the original insertant, it seems logical they'd want to try another Anasurimbor, but did the Consult even know who the original insertant was?  My impression was Nau-Cayuti was just another faceless attempt in a long procession of souls (but it's been a while since I read that scene).

It's easier for me to believe the Consult/Dunsult is ignorant of how to start the No-God than it is for me to believe they're just pretending to try to kill Kellhus to lure him in.  All the while ignoring any of his more accessible offspring or ishualian relations for 20 years.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by SmilerLoki on May 26, 2021, 09:04:17 am »
But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.
I heavily dispute this reasoning. In this case, first, they had enough time to put the Chorae back on after ultimately going with Kelmomas. Second, it is absolutely unclear that the Chorae would even damage the Insertant, since the Carapace is thick enough to serve as protection - the Chorae are on the outside of it, while the Insertant is inside.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by H on May 25, 2021, 03:41:34 pm »
Oh yeah, this should probably be moved.  I don't know how to spoiler tag from my phone, so I'll refrain from posting more.

No need, I split off the topic and moved it to TUC, so we can post away, spoiler tag free.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by The P on May 24, 2021, 11:22:51 pm »
Oh yeah, this should probably be moved.  I don't know how to spoiler tag from my phone, so I'll refrain from posting more.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by H on May 24, 2021, 09:45:10 pm »
I am not sold on the Dunsult knowing it needs Kellhus, nor even that he could be an insertant.

But they did, it's why they took the Chorae off the Carapace.

They even say as much:
Quote
“And you think I’m the missing piece?” Kellhus asked. “The Subject that will revive this ... system?”

Was that why the Chorae had been removed from the Carapace? For him? It seemed to Malowebi that he strangled ...

The nearest of the disfigured Dûnyain, the burnt one, nodded. “The Celmomian Prophecy foretells your coming, Brother.”

I also just realized that we are in the TGO section.  Should we spoiler this stuff, or move it to the TUC section?
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by The P on May 24, 2021, 09:19:16 pm »
I am not sold on the Dunsult knowing it needs Kellhus, nor even that he could be an insertant.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by H on May 24, 2021, 04:57:55 pm »
I don't know, I still think that even if Dagliash goes perfectly well for the Consult there is essentially near zero chance that Kellhus himself is killed.  The aim is likely to reduce the Ordeal itself to near inoperability, so that when Kellhus arrives, he will not be aided.  Granted, near zero is not zero, but the Consult likely has to risk it, because they can't allow the Ordeal to just walk up to the door, that has too many confounding variables to account for really.

So, I think it's a little odd, no doubt, but it has some sense to it.  Is it risky?  Yes.  But is it more or less risky than just letting Kellhus do whatever he wants?  Unclear, but likely not too much either way.

Another thing to consider is that the Consult still is playing some manner of charades.  They have to "pretend" that they want to kill Kellhus, because deliberately avoiding killing him would be a dead giveaway of their whole plan.  Which means Kellhus might suss it out and fail to show up.  The crux might well be that they don't know that Kellhus' plan is specifically to waltz in regardless of what they do, so they have to lure him somehow and not tip their hand.

It might work better in thinking that Dagliash is really a risky demonstration.  I think they realize that post-Metagnosis, they cannot possibly threaten Kellhus' person, so they take to a dog and pony show in order to convince him that they have the more effective way of dealing with the "Damnation problem."  That isn't without some risk, but again, the allow Kellhus to realize that they have no interest in killing him is probably even more risky.  Along with the fact that an intact Ordeal is likely a unneeded confounding variable in the whole plan.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by Wilshire on May 24, 2021, 12:59:45 pm »
Yes. The very deadly Consult trap that, seemingly, could have gone undetected by Kellhus and detonated wiping out the Ordeal and most importantly...Kellhus....

...thus making System Resumption an impossibility.

For a goal that relies entirely on the insertion of a living, breathing person with Anasurimbor blood, the Consult seems to play awfully fast and loose with things. Detonating an atomic bomb, using the Heron Spear’s sister spear to nearly kill Serwa, then Skuthula to nearly kill Kyutas and to actually kill Serwa. Then a skin-spy kills Kellhus. And the arrival of Kelmomus seemed wasn’t on anyone s playbook.

It bugs me. And there’s nobody that loves this story more that me, but...it bugs me.

Those are all... very good points lol. Especially because we know the Dunyain are the Consult at this point. I think we're supposed to assume they how to get the No-God running again.

Maybe they figured if they did end up killing all of them, they could either go back and grab Theli, or maybe force one of themselves into the thing. After 2000 years, all the Dunyain are a least a little Anasurimbor.

So maybe as an excuse we can say that Kellhus alive is more of a threat than Kellhus dead.
Or, that they came to the same conclusion that Kellhus did, and figured that whoever needed to live to make it into the No-God and seal the world would eventually just make it into the golden room. Since it "already happened"...

That said, those are pretty unsatisfying excuses.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: The Relation of Ishterbinth, Sranc and Dagliash
« Last post by Quinthane on May 23, 2021, 04:21:31 pm »
Yes. The very deadly Consult trap that, seemingly, could have gone undetected by Kellhus and detonated wiping out the Ordeal and most importantly...Kellhus....

...thus making System Resumption an impossibility.

For a goal that relies entirely on the insertion of a living, breathing person with Anasurimbor blood, the Consult seems to play awfully fast and loose with things. Detonating an atomic bomb, using the Heron Spear’s sister spear to nearly kill Serwa, then Skuthula to nearly kill Kyutas and to actually kill Serwa. Then a skin-spy kills Kellhus. And the arrival of Kelmomus seemed wasn’t on anyone s playbook.

It bugs me. And there’s nobody that loves this story more that me, but...it bugs me.



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Is it possible the nonmen leading the sranc army are from ishteribinth? the delegation that shows up to the ordeal says theyre surprised they survived. maybe they were in on it.

Also I never put this together, but it can't be a coincidence that they wanted kelhus to go to dagliash and there happened to be a crazy trap there, all while depriving him of his most trusted sorceress + 2. A very tidy trap now that I think on it.
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