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The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« Last post by sciborg2 on June 28, 2021, 11:09:09 pm »
We talked some more about this on the Discord - or rather I babbled to myself this weekend  :-[

There the whole lineage thing that combines human and Nonman blood, resulting in a "Two Hearted" ancestor of Kellhus.

From Knife of Many Hands there seems to be a parallel between two hearts and two personalities if not two souls.

This seems to relate to something the No-God requires to get started again, perhaps having two souls in one body creates some "flaw" or "singularity" that the Ark + NG can exploit to shut the world?

Another question is whether the Outside is made of "stuff" and can be manipulated in the same way the Inside has been manipulated using the reductonist principles of the Tekne.
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RPG Discussion / Re: Occult Investigators in the Bakkerverse?
« Last post by sciborg2 on June 28, 2021, 11:04:41 pm »
well i do have one RPG question - would you play it so (almost?) everyone is ultimately damned?
that would be rather interesting as the "Consult" equivalent turns out to be right. "Truth belongs to the Enemy"

Rich people would also have an interesting role, if we go by some curious lines from the TUC gloss

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    “Temporal fortune,” we are assured, “is naught but the shadow of eternal damnation …” In his Annals, Casidas contends that Hintarates was what drove the powerful to incessant war, “to leap to Gilgaöl lest falling deeper still.” Later in the Annals, he writes that “contention is the greatest curse of our religion. If the powerful are not waging war to save their souls, their people are waging war against them for being damned,” a passage that has been, not surprisingly, redacted in a great many copies.

    Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: The Aspect-Emperor: Book Four (The Aspect-Emperor Trilogy) . The Overlook Press. Kindle Edition.

Pacts could seemingly be made with the Hundred, as Kelmomas put it to shovel souls into the jaws of Hell.
Prolly what they were doing in the Bohemian Grove anyway ;)

I say "seemingly" b/c it isn't clear the Hundred have human-type intellects, though a DM could play it that way if they want.
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RPG Discussion / Occult Investigators in the Bakkerverse?
« Last post by sciborg2 on June 28, 2021, 08:52:24 pm »
Transporting some discussion about this from the Discord ->

Athjeari:

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Is anyone into the SCP Foundation universe?  If so, I’m trying to identify what portions of tSA that could be transferred over to the D&D 5e rule set in a believable manner.
This specific group of players I DM for played my patchwork version of tSA, but I think they would really like an adventure version where they are essentially SCP agents and all of the SCP’s they are called to investigate are out of the Bakkerverse

Shulgi the Innkeeper:

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SCP is great
Used to read articles before, haven't checked it in more than a year though.
If you combine the technological anomalies, such as the ones made by Anderson Robotics or perhaps Prometheus Labs and use them as technology for the Consult, I think it will make a fun mixture. I doubt the lores are compatible in any way though, even the horror atmosphere is different.
Flesh that hates and Consult abomiantions could work together I guess

Sciborg:

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Regarding the RPG idea I think you can combine elements of Neuropath - use tech to fuck with people's brains in Seven-movie fashion w/ elements of the gods and Outside
The Hundred can be archetypes, hiding behind angels of the monotheisms and gods of the polytheisms.
The Hundred, are, arguably, akin to AIs
The Trickster seems like a friend, helping you navigate these horrors, but in truth seeks a way into the world could be a campaign.
Ciprhang - I assume 5e has the Tanar'ri, the demons of the Abyss
Those seem to be inspiration for the Ciphrang we get in the books.

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5e Ultramodern - I think that's the title - prolly has enough modern rules for stuff like guns to help blend the fantasy and sci-fi elements.
You don't even need to read Neuropath, you can just ask yourself what happens when the worst people in the world - many of whom are in power - get access to tech that can fuck with brains....

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Chorae would need to be toned down, tho Aporetics could be how Ciphrang are harmed...like you scribble some Word of God onto bullets, blades, etc.
just use magical weapon rules, maybe with some "ignoring defensive magics"

Wilshire:

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The all/nothing nature of Bakker's magic is likely untenable for an rpg.

It works on the scale of armies, but for small groups it doesn't make sense. Either all encounters simply end with a handwaive, or the wizard does nothing.

SmilerLoki:

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it's pretty much like the real world - who lands the first hit, wins

Sciborg:

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Aporetics actually gives a reason for the sci-fi tech

The mechanic is already in the Modern / Urban-Fantasy rules for 5e
Ah you just tone down the efficacy of Aporetics
Like how you need a +1 magical weapon to hit most demons, elementals, etc
It give the opportunity, not victory outright

H:

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Brutal Rock, Paper, Scissors balance there.
I mean, it can work, you just better watch each other's asses.  But, yeah, maybe they were going for a real D2 Hardcore-style.  It does make for some real "stakes."  In a Heideggerian Being-Towards-Death way, I guess.

Sci:

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Yeah a lot of the Old School Renaissance stuff is pretty hardcore
But if the goal is Occult Investigation into Bakkerverse type horror
Seems like you need to either up the power of science and/or lower the power of magic

Wilshire:

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Permadeath is not something I have ever felt I had time for.

Sci:

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permadeath based on a die-roll especially is hard if you were 3/4ths of the way into an X-files style case

Wilshire:

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Closest I've come is Xcom2 where your soldiers can die. While great fun in its devastation, i don't have the hours to lose an entire game.

Sci:

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heh i was just thinking of how it could be done Xcom style

Wil:

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Yeah feeling the loss of a mistake that kills a character you've been grooming is nice in that way, as you kind of get the best of both..

You still keep playing the stakes are there to lend weight to decisions.

Sci:

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Plus the agency itself has more of a character. Sorta like Men in Black

You select agents for the job, possibly separate investigators from "SWAT" back up

So your "main guys" aren't dying every time

Pail:

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Sorcerer vs Sorcerer battles still get a back-and-forth, where wards get worn down and reinforced

Smiler:

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that's assuming no one's blindsided, which is a pretty big assumption

Pail:

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they still have reflexive and incipient wards though

and it's hard to be blindsided due to the mark

Wil:

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Akka gets ambushed a number of times
Manages to live.

Smiler:

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I would assume those can be overwhelmed with a precision strike, given time to aim/concentrate

Sci:

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Akka has warning Wards, it's why he wakes up in the library

Smiler:

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and I mean blindsided in a skirmish, when too much stuff happens, and you can get attacked from any side at any point, while you yourself are attacking someone in the same way

Wil:

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Kellhus teleporting around and killing all the primaries.

Where were their skin wards lol.
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General Misc. / Re: What are you watching?
« Last post by H on June 21, 2021, 04:48:08 pm »
Sheeeeeeeit - I was watching for when season 2 would hit, but missed it, sigh. Maybe I can stream them off the app. Season 1 was about half English, is season 2 all French?

Not sure how they are doing it on the US airing by Epix.  But the "original" French airing is partly in French, mostly in English.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« Last post by H on June 21, 2021, 04:40:57 pm »
Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.

I am not sure a topoi is the right parallel though.  A topoi bridges the Inside and Outside, the material world and the ethical realm of Spirit.  The No-God sort of does the "reverse" (or whatever method of negation would be the right term).  It closes the Inside to the Outside, isolating the material words from that ethical realm altogether.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« Last post by SmilerLoki on June 21, 2021, 04:38:36 pm »
Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.
One death wouldn't create a topos, though. Moreover, Kelmomas doesn't exhibit any topoi-like qualities, if anything, he exhibits just the opposite.
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General Misc. / Re: What are you watching?
« Last post by TaoHorror on June 21, 2021, 04:33:06 pm »
Snuck up on me, but War of the Worlds (from Fox/Epix/Canal+) is back on.  If you can understand French, all the season 2 episodes have aired, but Epix is over halfway though the show now too (I guess with an English dub?).

Sheeeeeeeit - I was watching for when season 2 would hit, but missed it, sigh. Maybe I can stream them off the app. Season 1 was about half English, is season 2 all French?
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« Last post by TaoHorror on June 21, 2021, 04:30:53 pm »
Well - a twin that murders his twin may do the trick is what I was going for. The murder creating the topoi required to complete the collapse, not just your twin dying as they would've likely encountered such a person through their testing.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« Last post by H on June 21, 2021, 04:20:37 pm »
Well, it was Celmomas II, not necessarily Nau-Cayûti (who was the first No-God) who we know to be a twin.  We don't know if Nau was or was not though.  It could be that he was and somehow some process of twinning divorces the soul from a specific body.  It could also just be that the process little Kel undergoes (hypnotism of sorts?) does the same.  It's totally unclear why makes one "suitable" for No-God operation.  But it must be rather uncommon.  Just being a twin seems unlikely, given how many people were stuffed in there over the years.

If just being a twin was sufficient, it likely would have works just by blind luck.  However, being a twin might be necessary, but not quite sufficient.  What the sufficient condition might further be is a subsequent sort of divorce between the soul and (possibly, maybe) the larger ethical realm (read: Spirit, the Soul, the Outside).
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Collapse of Object and Subject
« Last post by SmilerLoki on June 21, 2021, 04:10:51 pm »
Not sure if we've ever figured out why the original insertant and lil' Kel were able to operate TNG. We've been talking about it in Facebook and bringing it here in case some of you are not in the FB group. Could it be that a twin killing their twin causes their consciousness to collapse with their unconsciousness which then makes you invisible to the gods since you wouldn't have a soul any more ( soul destruction? or does it go somewhere? ). If this happens to you, then your conscious and unconscious minds would be objectively aware of each other and can even talk to each other. So the original insertant and the dude 2,000 years ago ( forget his name ) were both twins who murdered their twin, obj/sub collapse, their soul is gone and then can operate TNG. TNG is invisible as well as the insertant is - explains why the Luck Warrior couldn't see Lil' Kel, was invisible to the gods since his ojb/sub collapsed. So back in the day, the Consult couldn't figure this out and just sent a horde of people through trying to find someone who could turn it on. If they knew this was how to make it work, they would've simply found twins and engineered one to murder the other.
One thing that I want to say about  it (it came up on Discord recently) - there is no data points that suggest that there were any Insertants before Nau-Cayuti. Thus, he is the original Insertant.
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