[Camel]

So, as we know from both books and interviews of RSB his universe has objective morality. Mimara can even see morality of things and people. And RSB said that whole religions can be false and entire nations will be damned because of that in Earwa. Now the thing that bothers me is what nations are unlucky to literally go to hell because they chose wrong religion and prophet. Inrithism? Fanim? Zaudunyani? Oh and mages and nonmen are damned anyway.

I guess it's safe to say the Zaudunyani are damned because they follow the wrong prophet, Mimara even notes that circumfix is a false symbol. So who else? We don't see Kellhus under the Judging Eye but I assume he's damned thanks to his Mark and numerous sins. On the other hand, Mimara saw a literal halo above her head. Then suffering can bring salvation? 

P.S. Please keep the discussion of real religions out of this thread.

[Madness]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Camel.

To break down what I can do for you.

I agree with you concerning the 'objective morality,' however, you'll find that not everyone here can agree that it means the same thing we understand it to mean.

Mimara may or may not see the 'objective morality' that Bakker is referring to.

We don't know that Kellhus is a False Prophet; I think we impose that upon the narrative because Kellhus doesn't seem to exhibit what are, ultimately, probably culturally projected (possibly global-culture) "prophet-like qualities" (though I am inclined to believe Mimara's has access to a (possibly) most omniscient perspective of the narrative world, so far, but we just don't know, again, the validity of her perspective). We also haven't seen Kellhus through the eyes of the Few in TAE series yet... perhaps, Kellhus has a mark like the Cishaurim or Titirga, whom may or may not be Damned as other sorcerers seem to be (Titirga from The False Sun short story on Bakker blog - apparently, major spoilers for The Unholy Consult because it offers a pre-apocalypse Consult perspective, which is also probably imminent in TUC).

Bakker has said that innocence is key to redemption in Earwa (suffering has also been mentioned, I think). But, again, Mimara's Holiness is self-referential; it's an operational definition. We just don't know whose judgement Mimara really see.

Cheers.

[sologdin]

i think the whole damnation thing is a red herring that all'y'all have inexplicably chased for eight years across at least three boards now.

therefore, logicians are damned.

[Madness]

Lol +1, solo.

I've only pursued it in the past year, really, and only to reign in some perspectives. I don't even think I care about the Damnation aspect of the series.

However, I am Damned for pursuing logic among other cognitive tools.

[Duskweaver]

But, again, Mimara's Holiness is self-referential; it's an operational definition. We just don't know whose judgement Mimara really see.

If we take seriously the idea that the Judging Eye is the Eye of the Unborn, then she is seeing herself from the PoV of her own unborn (and presumably therefore entirely and eternally innocent) child in that scene. But should a child's view of his/her own mother as 'holy' really be taken as (if you'll pardon the term) Gospel? Maybe any woman with the JE would see herself the way Mimara did, no matter the true state of her own soul? Even if the JE is infallibly accurate when turned outwards, that doesn't imply it is so when turned back on itself.

After all, the Inchoroi seem to believe that absolutely everybody is damned.

[Camel]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Camel.

Thank you! I was lurking here for some time and finally decided to join a discussion.

Mimara may or may not see the 'objective morality' that Bakker is referring to.

I think we can safely assume that she sees the 'objective morality' - Gallian was shocked and didn't dispute anything when Mimara mentioned a "crimson butterfly", she also saw that Akka is damned and we know from Shauriatas that sorcerers indeed are doomed to go to hell, she also somehow killed the shade of Gin'yursis.

We don't know that Kellhus is a False Prophet; I think we impose that upon the narrative because Kellhus doesn't seem to exhibit what are, ultimately, probably culturally projected (possibly global-culture) "prophet-like qualities" (though I am inclined to believe Mimara's has access to a (possibly) most omniscient perspective of the narrative world, so far, but we just don't know, again, the validity of her perspective). We also haven't seen Kellhus through the eyes of the Few in TAE series yet... perhaps, Kellhus has a mark like the Cishaurim or Titirga, whom may or may not be Damned as other sorcerers seem to be (Titirga from The False Sun short story on Bakker blog - apparently, major spoilers for The Unholy Consult because it offers a pre-apocalypse Consult perspective, which is also probably imminent in TUC).

Yeah, Bakker didn't show Kellhus under the Judging Eye yet. Sometimes silence speaks more than words, as I think it is in this case. Although we saw Kellhus' Mark in the first trilogy and it was normal one, not something that Titirga had.

Bakker has said that innocence is key to redemption in Earwa (suffering has also been mentioned, I think).

I see.

[Madness]

...

"The Judging Eye is the eye of the Unborn... The eye that watches from the God's own vantage."

I like the tie-in you've made between innocence and the child (Unborn of the Judging Eye would seem particularly sinless). However, Achamian's quote seems to point to "the God's" judgement, from his perspective most culturally likely to be Inri Sejenus' God of Gods. And really I don't think those need be mutually exclusive.

I'll cast some doubt with the worst of them but I don't really see reason to doubt a mundane reflection of sight (the water she uses as mirror).

Looking back on her life, murdering her pimps (this is fucking stretch of mind) is basically the only thing I could see as sin. Mimara was sold into slavery before she had any real agency of her own; her entire life might be absolved by that fact... Like Serwe.

On Earwan "true-prophet criteria:" I think healing is an absolute must. If the wielding of metaphysic by humans is all based on the perversion of the God's Song or Dream (Tolkien or Erikson - though, I think Erikson is too contemporary of Bakker's Earwan creation to be an influence on something like that), then those who cannot create obviously cannot be representing any truly omniscient God (if such a thing exists, and redemption, salvation, absolution, imply this in Earwa). Prophets and/or Shaman must have the ability to create. I've been waiting for sorcerous acts of creation since TDTCB and thaumaturgical acts of creation since TJE. Sorcerers destroy. False Prophets do nothing (with their supposed thaumaturgy, anyways - Kellhus is going to muck things up with sorcery); this was always my greatest (and really only) doubt of Kellhus as a True Prophet. He might know enough to commune with the Gods but they aren't backing him...

Thank you! I was lurking here for some time and finally decided to join a discussion.

An excellent choice .

I think we can safely assume that she sees the 'objective morality' - Gallian was shocked and didn't dispute anything when Mimara mentioned a "crimson butterfly", she also saw that Akka is damned and we know from Shauriatas that sorcerers indeed are doomed to go to hell, she also somehow killed the shade of Gin'yursis.

I'm with you. I just like to consider all the options fully; do some work for the inevitable haters.

Yeah, Bakker didn't show Kellhus under the Judging Eye yet. Sometimes silence speaks more than words, as I think it is in this case.

Absolutely. I'd love if Achamian just dragged Mimara to the armies of the Great Ordeal and demanded that she declare Kellhus false... and then Mimara can lie and declare him true . Imagination's running wild.

Although we saw Kellhus' Mark in the first trilogy and it was normal one, not something that Titirga had.

Mark is proportionate to skill, friend. Kellhus in TTT still needed Achamian to protect him. Twenty years later. Kellhus either looks Quya, Titirga, or something different... certainly not a normal human sorcerer.

[Camel]

After all, the Inchoroi seem to believe that absolutely everybody is damned.

Huh, do you have a quote?

[Madness]

A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.“

“So say you.”

A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”

EDIT: Though, to your point, Duskweaver, I'm not sure the Inchoroi isn't specifically referring to the sorcerers and Quya that were the context of the conversation. There's ambiguity.

[Camel]

Prophets and/or Shaman must have the ability to create.

Is it a must have ability? Imo a connection to god(gods) must be a sign of the true prophet, like something Sorweel has.

Absolutely. I'd love if Achamian just dragged Mimara to the armies of the Great Ordeal and demanded that she declare Kellhus false... and then Mimara can lie and declare him true . Imagination's running wild.

It would be fitting for Mimara's character lol.

Mark is proportionate to skill, friend. Kellhus in TTT still needed Achamian to protect him. Twenty years later. Kellhus either looks Quya, Titirga, or something different... certainly not a normal human sorcerer.

I think Titirga's Mark was different not because of his magic potential. Then Nil'giccas as probably the strongest sorcerer in history should have the same mark, but it was the identical to others even it was very deep. Kellhus also learned Daimos with the Scarlet Spires, and that is the shortest path to hell. Cyphrang was shouting to Iyokus that his soul now belongs to them.

[Madness]

Is it a must have ability? Imo a connection to god(gods) must be a sign of the true prophet, like something Sorweel has.

For me, healing/creation are must-haves for Earwan Prophets. That's only supported by Inri Sejenus healing the blinded Horomon, Xinemus then being the obvious contention against Kellhus' status, if true.

It would be fitting for Mimara's character lol.

I think so too.

I think Titirga's Mark was different not because of his magic potential. Then Nil'giccas as probably the strongest sorcerer in history should have the same mark, but it was the identical to others even it was very deep.

Titirga Mithalara, they called him–the Giver of Mercy!–ironic renown for his ruthless extermination of his foes. He was certainly the most powerful Insinger ever born. And if what Cet’ingira said was true, the most powerful, period. No living Quya had the purity of his Recitations. Even his Stain was different, somehow muted, as if he could cut the Inward without scarring it. Even now, simply regarding him, his distinction literally glared from his image, a strange, sideways rinsing of the Stain.

The vital difference. The threat.

Kellhus also learned Daimos with the Scarlet Spires, and that is the shortest path to hell. Cyphrang was shouting to Iyokus that his soul now belongs to them.

We've kicked around a theory here and on Westeros that the Ciphrang hanging from Kellhus' hip are, in fact, the two not destroyed by Chorae in PON (I forget if the exact count is right or if we've figured out exactly how it works but the thinking is that only Chorae actually end a Ciphrang, that a sorcerous defeat simply sends them back to the Outside). Perspectives even swear that the Ciphrang heads react sometimes (blinks and mouths moving) so maybe Kellhus has defeated those two in another way trapping them in the World and rendering their influence Outside useless? But still Iyokus' Gift from Kellhus is killing those who would keepeth his soul for eternity.

In a sense, Kellhus has made a convincing argument for the Scarlet Spires to use the Daimos in a Schoolwide Concert sans fear of that particular Damned condemnation.

[Duskweaver]

Huh, do you have a quote?

Madness already provided the quote, but here is the link.

It's more ambiguous that I recalled, but it still reads to me like "all of you" means "all you ensoulled beings on this world" rather than "all you sorcerers".

[Madness]

It could be. Lol, I think we're trailing from the justifications for prophets and Damnation but it could easily be as you write. I just think that the more profound notation of the interaction is the Inchoroi declaring Earwa's Ground special (which you and I have tried to distinguish on a few occasions now). We know people are Damned. I want to understand the mechanisms involved in how that Damnation plays out in Earwan reality.

[Triskele]

I've laughed pretty hard at many of solo's posts over the years, but that one was one of the best.  I felt like Eleazaras cackling with grief when it was starting to set in that he was quite damned after all. 


Yeah, we can't say that Nil'giccas, even if he was a great character is the greatest sorcerer.  Here's what I think the heirarchy likely is....wait...just got started and realized I should go back to the sorcery thread to do this rather than here.  So I have contributed quite nothing with this post!

[Madness]

You read it, Trisk .