[TGO SPOILERS] First complete chapter with Akka and Mimara

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themerchant

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« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2016, 08:28:57 pm »
For me the thing that stuck out is when Mimara suddenly seeing the Truth(well as much as the judging eye is truth) of Kellhus, and her first thought it to warn her mother. Really jarring and showing how deeply it affected her.

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No idea what you're meaning.

themerchant

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« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2016, 08:43:26 pm »
Could the dragons actually fly would be another question.

CFKane

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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2016, 12:01:08 am »
And as always, with the answers, we get more questions:

...

2. If the Dunyain are ev-il, who's side are they on?  TJE views the Dunyain as monsters and as mentioned above, so does Kellhus in Chapter 1.  But they sure don't seem to be aligned with the Consult. 

Blast from the past: In Thousandfold Thought, when Kellhus confronts Moenghus:

Quote from: Thousandfold Thought
“These voices,” Moënghus said with slow deliberation, “what do they say of me?”

His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moënghus had assumed that his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation—and discard it. “They warn me,” Kellhus said, “that you are Dûnyain still.”

One of the captive skin-spies convulsed against its chains, vomited threads of spittle into the pit below. “I see. And this is why I am to die?”

Kellhus looked to the haloes about his hands. “The crimes you’ve committed, Father … the sins … When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dûnyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy … And you will war as they war.”

It seems that the Thousandfold Thought ultimately drives the Dunyain into the arms of the Consult. Whether that means that they are evil is a different question, and depends on our interpretation of evil. Evil in the Earwa-universe frame, or evil in our moral universe. I think closing the world to the outside sounds like a laudable goal, although the primary proponents of that solution seem reprehensible.

This does suggest that my pet theory, that Kellhus pursues the same aims as the consult, may be incorrect. Although, if Mimara correctly perceives him as damned, and he knows that he is damned, that may change his point of view from first-trilogy Kellhus.

Also, interesting that Kellhus points to his father's crimes, sins, and wickedness when Kellhus engaged in similar exploits in his journey to meet his father.

Wilshire

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« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2016, 03:17:11 pm »
I disagree with your conclusion.

"as Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness..."

To me, the implication is simply dominance over circumstance. The end might be the same, some machination designed to kill or shut out the gods, but in my mind, this would necessarily mean the destruction of the Consult as well. A Dunyain wouldn't suffer them to live. They hold too much power and mystery, and are probably indomitable in the timeframe of a single human lifetime.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

CFKane

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« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2016, 04:19:53 pm »
I disagree with your conclusion.

"as Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness..."

To me, the implication is simply dominance over circumstance. The end might be the same, some machination designed to kill or shut out the gods, but in my mind, this would necessarily mean the destruction of the Consult as well. A Dunyain wouldn't suffer them to live. They hold too much power and mystery, and are probably indomitable in the timeframe of a single human lifetime.

Poorly chosen words on my part, I suppose. Given what we know of the Dunyain, they would almost certainly attempt to control or destroy the consult (as they did the Holy War in the first series). I'm not sure that the distinction really matters, however, if they reach the same conclusion about how to close the world to the outside. If the Dunyain do not join and seize control of the Consult, they would likely just create a new, more effective version of the Consult in its place. Assuming there is no creative new way to close the world to the outside.

Also, if you are the Dunyain, why settle for a single human lifetime when you can use the creepy Shaeönanra approach?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 04:23:38 pm by CFKane »

Ciogli

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« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2016, 12:28:32 am »
It appears that I am Will Smith from I Am Legend and this place is New York, the only action is on the arc giveaway thread.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 06:00:06 am by Ciogli »
The world holds no terrors for me, I stand naked as the falling sword, I am the Terror.

themerchant

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« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2016, 05:42:47 am »
A lot of the regulars have read the ARC, and are discussing it in their secret forum, may the scripture that comes remember them as "Shikol's thigh boners"

There is like 3 of us who have abstained so you're left with our shitty chat till TGO comes out :)

Ciogli

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« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2016, 05:59:21 am »
Well I shall pray to Ajokli that I might smite mine enemies, to hell with them and their secret forum. I don't think their that cool anyway, I didn't really want talk about the book.
The world holds no terrors for me, I stand naked as the falling sword, I am the Terror.

Madness

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« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2016, 01:45:14 pm »
It appears that I am Will Smith from I Am Legend and this place is New York, the only action is on the arc giveaway thread.

A lot of the regulars have read the ARC, and are discussing it in their secret forum, may the scripture that comes remember them as "Shikol's thigh boners"

There is like 3 of us who have abstained so you're left with our shitty chat till TGO comes out :)

Well I shall pray to Ajokli that I might smite mine enemies, to hell with them and their secret forum. I don't think their that cool anyway, I didn't really want talk about the book.

Lmao. I'm sorry, Ciogli. After the Quorum excerpt spoilers and the realization that a number of people were going to have read an ARC while some people clearly didn't want to read the excerpts, they needed their own fastness for the greater good.

There are - I don't know - fifty new members with accounts who didn't have them a week ago :). Not to mention the couple hundred here already.

You outnumber ARC readers like six to one.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 01:47:05 pm by Madness »
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Walter

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« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2016, 06:11:49 pm »
I ebayed an ARC and have read it!  Please uplift me to the secret forum!

MSJ

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« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2016, 08:11:20 pm »
@Walter, message Madness or Wilshire. Also, beg....beg as you have never begged before. ;)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

generic

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« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2016, 10:07:26 am »

I have to say though, I've seen a detail mentioned before that is becoming more and more salient to me: if there are so many Sranc in the North, so many that between the Dunyain, the scalpers, the Great Ordeal, there's still an incomprehensibly vast amount of them... By all rights the Sranc should have eradicated mankind a long, long time ago. If there's an entire subspecies of them dedicated to leading their roving bands, if the Erratics under the Consult have mustered a great many of them as an army, then even despite the No-God's absence I just can't think of why they've taken so long to reduce the population to 144k. The Consult have had this one in the bag for the last couple of centuries at least, why on Earwa have they been waiting for mankind to muster its forces and cut their way into Mordor?

Both the ten yoke legion and the force exterminating Ishual were led by Nonmen. Nonmen are irreplaceable and there is a lot of ground to cover.

Also after this chapter it finally clicked for me. The Dunyani are an ancient plot by the Nonmen kings, Mek in particular. Seswatha is/was also into it. Its the perfect conspiracy because no one remembers it. Why was Mek there in the prologue? So he could get the new Dunyani and transport him south. Just as he did with Moe. And maybe the Latter Prophet? That would make the Trapper the one who derailed everything.
Why does Seswatha have to be involved? Because he knew where Ishual was, Mek didn't. When did he join? At the walls of Daghlish(sp). It wasn't a place he should have been able to escape from under his own power.
This explains several things:
The Dunyani extinguishing magic and history. Otherwise they would be unmanageable. No matter how smart you are, you won't catch on to magic spies if you never consider the possibility.
Cleric sounding like Khellus.

No idea what the purpose is, but the idea of Mek burning down cities in particular patterns just so he can remember his part of the plot has a lot of appeal. I propose that he staked the population of Daghlish to the wall as a giant screaming post it note.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2016, 05:47:54 pm »
Just finally succumbed to reading these excerpts. I'm actually not a fan of the whale-mothers right now. The rate at which the Dunyain were speciating was already stretching my suspension of disbelief, and it's quite strained now. I mean, I'd accept the whale-mothers. Human version of naked mole rat queens, basically. But the whale-mothers AND the awesome face reading AND the incredible intellect AND the probability trance AND the super speed AND the super reflexes AND the super strength AND the iron-bones? Two millenia of selective breeding can only do so much. Plus, while horrifying...feels like beating a dead horse at this point to be honest. Women suffering while being used by men? You don't say? I mean it's not a deal breaker for me but I think there were better ways to go with it. Also kind of weird that the whale-mothers didn't have a bit more of the Dunyain traits in their neurology, too. I mean the vast majority of their genome is shared with male specimens of Homo dunyaini.

Though with the way Kellhus describes the breeding process, combined with the whole story about the mating narwhales, makes me hold out a glimmer of hope that perhaps this only happens to Dunyain women when they're impregnated, and otherwise, they resemble their male counterparts more.

I'll post my other thoughts when I've ordered them better and seen what else has already been discussed. (I'm already itching to decry the "Kellhus is clearly the Dunyain's chosen one!" narrative...  :P )

EDIT: Possibly a bit of a clue to the internal make-up of the Consult, here. When the kid first said "Singers" I thought Mangaecca, not Erratics, for a mission of such importance. But it was apparently (in particular given how easily they got lost) at least primarily Erratics. What happened to the Mangaecca? Do they still exist in any numbers? Are they simply too precious to risk, or are they primarily extinct?

EDIT 2: I know it's been said, but "We have to find her (mother)! We have to warn her!". Very powerful moment. Someone she hates/loves so much. Kind of like Cnaiur having to continually quash the urge to call out to the Inrithi in warning. Dunyain are so inhuman and terrible that even a Scylvendi and a Nansur can find common ground.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 06:25:33 pm by The Sharmat »

The Sharmat

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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2016, 06:40:22 pm »
Hm. I think I get it now. Salvation and damnation are identical. Not just in the Outside, but in the real world. Dunyain or the God vs. the Consult? What's the difference? They both hollow people out and turn them into instruments of their own uses. Shaeonanra's hosts and the whale-mothers. A lot more to compare there than to contrast.

Doubt

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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2016, 03:26:39 am »
Hm. I think I get it now. Salvation and damnation are identical. Not just in the Outside, but in the real world. Dunyain or the God vs. the Consult? What's the difference? They both hollow people out and turn them into instruments of their own uses. Shaeonanra's hosts and the whale-mothers. A lot more to compare there than to contrast.
Sorry? Unless I misunderstand you, you're saying Kellhus is good? The Dunyain are damned t'fuck. Kellhus is described as doom incarnate. Them and the Consult aren't opposite sides of the good evil spectrum. They're both definitely on the "evil" side.
Cuts and cuts and cuts.