[Borque]

I think the "purity" of the Cishaurim work is a different sort of purity than the "purity of meaning" that I seem to recall is used somewhere to describe some Gnostic and or Quyan cants.

I like the "singing in tune" simile. The Cish are aware of and in tune with creation. Gnosis users don't listen at all, they just sing whatever they want, not giving a damn about even what kind of music is playing.

[Dûnyain novice]

I think the "purity" of the Cishaurim work is a different sort of purity than the "purity of meaning" that I seem to recall is used somewhere to describe some Gnostic and or Quyan cants.

I like the "singing in tune" simile. The Cish are aware of and in tune with creation. Gnosis users don't listen at all, they just sing whatever they want, not giving a damn about even what kind of music is playing.

I agree with this.
In case of Anagogic or Gnostic sorcery the "purity of meaning" is strictly "semantical" or scientific if you want. It's the precision when describing concepts, with probably a hint of metaphysical understanding in it. It's just a tool to employ sorcery for whatever ends.

[Garet Jax]

I like the "singing in tune" simile. The Cish are aware of and in tune with creation. Gnosis users don't listen at all, they just sing whatever they want, not giving a damn about even what kind of music is playing.

I like the simile.  It reminds me of a song I like.

"Who knew a tongue could do so much harm, lying in ones mouth?  Dancing to music that wasn't really there." -Laura Nichol

[Wilshire]

"He explained the all-important relation between the two halves of every Cant: the inutterals, whichalways remained unspoken, and the utterals, which always were spoken."

And

"Kellhus nodded, utterly unconcerned. "And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able tosteal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless.""There's the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key."

Funny that from the exact same passage I read that the only reason the Anagogic schools do not have the gnosis or something like it is because they do not know of the inutterals.

There is a passage somewhere about the inception of the Anagogic schools. I believe it arose without the benefit of nonman tutelage. I believe that this means those schools never learned about the inutterals. They brute forced their way into the arcane arts and never figured out how to do it properly. Also, its said multiple times that the Anagogic schools could discover the gnosis on their own if they could make the right logical leaps. I think that means figuring out how to use the 2nd half of the cant.

Agree to disagree though, since we got the opposite conclusion from the exact same text .

[Cüréthañ]

"In all sorcery, the inutterals are key."

Seems fairly straightforward.  Can't be a key component if you don't use it.  And the follow on, for me, is that the inutteral component frames the sorcerer's metaphysical grasp.

[Wilshire]

Why would the Anagogic schools bother trying to simply "recite" the words they hear spoken if they knew that it would never help.

But if thats an actual quote, I guess your right.

[Cüréthañ]

That is the utteral component

[Wic]

On the issue of the second inutteral, from TTT p.380:

With three voices he sang, one utteral pitched to the world and two inutterals directed to the ground. What had been an ancient Cant of Calling became something far, far more...A Cant of Transposing.

So it's not about refining the purity (although surely that sort of thing is possible), but about creating a new meaning entirely.

I always think of the soul as possessing a sort of thin boundary between the Outside and the mundane, with utterals and inutterals acting as varying sorts of portals set on either side of the boundary. 

[Wilshire]

That makes me wonder how the different schools use cants of calling. Seems strange that from what we know, all 3 schools need to know who and where the receiver is in order to communicate the dreams. If the anagogic, gnostic, and psuke are so dissimilar, why would they all need this same information?

[locke]

That makes me wonder how the different schools use cants of calling. Seems strange that from what we know, all 3 schools need to know who and where the receiver is in order to communicate the dreams. If the anagogic, gnostic, and psuke are so dissimilar, why would they all need this same information?

Read the whole quote, what is one becomes many, soul becomes place.  Here and there.  From where and to which.

Kellhus stepped back, focused his eyes on a point the size of a thumbnail held at arm’s length. What was one became many. What was soul became place.

Here.

Calling out from bones of things.

With three voices he sang, one utteral pitched to the world and two inutterals directed to the ground. What had been an ancient Cant of Calling became something far, far more…A Cant of Transposing.

Blue fractal lights mapped the air about him, cocooned him in brilliance. Through scribbling filaments he saw his father press himself upright, turn with his asps to the girded corridor. Anasûrimbor Moënghus … that he could look so pale in the light of his son!

Existence cringed before the whip of his voice. Space cracked. Here was pried into there. Beyond his father he saw Serwë, her blonde hair tied into a war-knot. He saw her leap out of the black …

Even as he toppled into one far greater.

[Madness]

Cants of Calling: ... The degree of similarity between Anagogic and Gnostic Cants of Calling has led many to suspect they hold the key to unraveling the Gnosis.

[Wilshire]

Cants of Calling: ... The degree of similarity between Anagogic and Gnostic Cants of Calling has led many to suspect they hold the key to unraveling the Gnosis.

Locke that didn't help me out any sorry . Though I did notice 2 things unrelated:
1) Isn't that first line a combination of Kellhus' description of the probability trance, and his thoughts on the sunrise of the last day of "the logos is without beginning or end" scene?
2) The blue light was described as Fractal, which I missed before. What a wonderful mathematical invention:
Would look something like this, though in 3d: http://trickylittleimp.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/fractal.jpg

[locke]

tesseract, fold space, take your pick, his soul becomes place.  Rather than soul being identity, it becomes a geographic point.  He then just has to navigate--fold--his way to another geographic point.  By soul becoming place one becomes many his soul stops being the individual identity and becomes a part of the whole.  then his soul just has to re manifest at another known geographic point.

Tie it into his 1000 points of light description of souls earlier in the book.

[Madness]

Lol.

Cants of Calling: ... Though the metaphysics of these Cants is only loosely understood, all long-distance Cants of Calling seem to turn on the so-called Here Hypothesis. One can call only to slumbering souls (because they remain open to the Outside) and only to those residing somewhere the Caller has been. The idea is that the "Here" of the Caller can only reach a "There," or other location, that has been a "Here" sometime in the past.

But surely, you know this, Father ?

[Wilshire]

Ever read Hyperion? The 4th book spends much time describing a very similar phenomenon its now how I picture the trasposition of soul. Bakker's Outside being Simmons' Void Which Binds

Basically, the 'Outside' is everywhere at once. This MG cant lets you 'move' from one 'place' to the next without traversing the distance since you are going through the "spaceless" outside.

That was abstract and confusing. You explained very well, and certainly much better than me.

I was wondering about the cants of calling though, not the cant of Transposing.

Lol.

Cants of Calling: ... Though the metaphysics of these Cants is only loosely understood, all long-distance Cants of Calling seem to turn on the so-called Here Hypothesis. One can call only to slumbering souls (because they remain open to the Outside) and only to those residing somewhere the Caller has been. The idea is that the "Here" of the Caller can only reach a "There," or other location, that has been a "Here" sometime in the past.

But surely, you know this, Father ?

I just think it strange that all the schools are able to do this, and yet the gnosis is so much more powerful. Maybe the anagogic schools "calling" cants are like Skype with slow internet connection, where the gnosis calling is a full HD video feed without lag . The only thing better than that would be actually being there talking... Oh...