[Madness]

Lol - wow, Wic. I might as well call it a day and hit the sack because it's not getting better than that .

[Triskele]

I was about to do this in another thread before realizing it would better here, but I wanted, pretty much just for fun, to make a little hierarchy of who the best sorcerers in the history of Earwa; both individuals and groups.  Here's my best attempt at it:

I mean this numbering system loosely for ease of ordering, but it includes groups as well as individuals.  Prepare to nitpick away.

1.  Kellhus

2.  Titirga

I'm making conjecture that however great it's suggested to us in False Sun that Titirga is, Kellhus is ahead.  But Titirga was mysterious enough...and the stuff about being blind and seizing things that shouldn't be seized...who knows.

3.  Su-juroit

I'm thinking that if he was the first of any kind to pull of the meta-gnostic, that's arguably more impressive than Serwa or Saccarees who were taught it

4-5.  Serwa and Saccarees.  Probably quite comparable in that they've got the meta-gnosis.  But interesting that we weren't really told if there aren't more that can now pull it off...perhaps Kellhus taught more?

6.  The best Quya plus Seswatha plus Noshainrau.  As far as we know, Su-juroit is the only one pre-Kellhus to do meta-gnosis, so that's what I'm basing this on.  And we're not told that Seswatha ever did it, and it seems implied that the Mandate pre-Kellhus would know it if Seswatha did.  I think we're led to believe that Noshainrau and Seswatha were comparable.  When I say the best of the Quya I mean like Nil'giccas and Gin-yursis and the like.  But it seems implied from Akka's POV that on average, a Quya will beat a Mandate sorcerer.

7.  The rest of the Mandate.  Gnosis trumps everyone further down the list

8.  Meppa - I'm assuming he is the most powerful Cishaurim ever, but I can't really prove that

9. Cishaurim primaries.  I think it's strongly implied that it turned out that they were stronger than the top Anagogic sorcerers. 

10.  It's gets dicey from here...I think you could lump the lower Cishaurim and the Saik, SS, and Mysunsai all together and just say that it depends on who is who.  So we might easily assume that Eleazaras tops the list in this group but represents the top of the bottom.  The Analogies lose to the Psukhe if it's one side's best versus another side's best.


OK - That was a crude approximation.  Feel free to poke holes.  Also understand that I have probably never felt like more of a geek in my life as I do making this post.   


ETA:  Oh...and then there's the great mystery of where Moenghus fits...

Or if he's already on the list, but I can't think where.

[Wic]

I'd put Quya above Serwa and Saccarees.  Regardless of the metagnosis, Quya have been singing for centuries, and we've seen the toll metagnosis takes on Serwa, and Cet'ingira sang for days taking down the Barricades. 

I think the true power of the metagnosis is in the sheer variety of potential cants made possible by a second inutteral.

[Triskele]

I'd put Quya above Serwa and Saccarees.  Regardless of the metagnosis, Quya have been singing for centuries, and we've seen the toll metagnosis takes on Serwa, and Cet'ingira sang for days taking down the Barricades. 

I think the true power of the metagnosis is in the sheer variety of potential cants made possible by a second inutteral.

That's a good point.  I guess it depends on what we mean by power.  If all Serwa can do w/ the meta-gnosis is gear up for one exhausting leap, that doesn't mean she could take Cleric in a fight.  Just that she's technically capable of getting a second inutteral which the quya do not. 

I forgot to mention the Daimos...

From what we've seen so far we know Ciphrang can take lower Cishaurim but have much more trouble with the top ones, and don't seem to be able to take gnostics.  But who knows if we've seen how far the Daimos can be taken...

[Madness]

1. Kellhus
2. Titirga
3. Su'juroit (I support Trisk's nerdaneling)
4. Aurang (& Aurax?)
7. Shauriatas (Shaeonanra)
4. Quya (I support Wic's thinking - in line with that, imagine what a Quya might do if they could grasp the second inutteral? [Lol, actually, we have in #3.] And even though, it's a question of strict sorcerous ability: Quya are just as likely to be Ishroi - for these purposes, I'm not making a class call, just suggesting that one seems to indicate martial ability over sorcerous, as well.)

This is more difficult than I'd like to think. For one, I think that Metagnostic sorcerers and sorceresses are more prevalent than the narrative as led on. Secondly, the Metagnostic Cant of Transposition seems like it would be a particularly difficult one, among the possible Metagnostic variations of War-Cants and Wards. But Seswatha and Noshainrau are so historically G...

So...

5. Serwa & Saccarees (Metagnostics)
6. Seswatha + Noshainrau

This is also difficult because I still think we've been denied a good working explanation of the Cishaurim's power. Is it the case that they do so wield as Kellhus suggests? I know Bakker's answers are often misleading (emotion, non-cognitive, intuition have all been used to describe the Puskhe). Perhaps, the Cishaurim reflect Eskeles' analogy of the God of Gods, with all the Cishaurim sharing one finite power base (obviously, some Primary to others), as has been suggested by others.

I'm going to posit strong and go with:

7. Meppa
8. Moenghus the Elder
9. Mandate Entire (as averaged from a baseline ability of having lived Seswatha's Dreams)
10. Cishaurim Primaries
11. Anagogic Daimos
12. The Rest of Them (as Trisk highlighted above in #10 of that list)

That'll shake things up .

EDIT:

Also understand that I have probably never felt like more of a geek in my life as I do making this post.   

Lol, this is it? Congrats on pushing the boundaries of skin (though, I think I disagree with your nomenclature. I don't remember where the word 'geek' came from but it's been misappropriated and has developed negative connotations where I'm at ).

EDIT II: Had to share this... Lmao:

This word comes from English dialect geek or geck (meaning a "fool" or "freak"; from Middle Low German Geck). This root survives in the Dutch and Afrikaans adjective gek ("crazy"), as well as some German dialects, and in the Alsatian word Gickeleshut ("jester's hat"; used during carnival). In 18th century Austria-Hungary, Gecken were freaks on display in some circuses. In 19th century North America, the term geek referred to a performer in a geek show in a circus or travelling carnival side-shows (see also freak show). The 1976 edition of the American Heritage Dictionary included only the definition regarding geek shows. Wrestler Freddie Blassie originated the term "pencil necked geek".

The Scandinavian cognates of the term carry a slightly different meaning of "making a fool out of someone else". This is evident in the transitive verb gäcka in Swedish and the phrase drive gæk med in Danish, both of which mean "to outsmart" or "to fool", as in the Swedish expression att gäcka rättvisan ("to cunningly escape justice"). In Denmark, the Easter tradition of sending anonymous paper-cut letters called gækkebreve is intended to puzzle or tease the recipient.

Also, as Wikipedia can be edited by anybody, I'd take these sources at a laugh until I find something definitive .

[Triskele]

Speaking of the words that Bakker uses to describe the Cish...one of the other ones oft-used is "passion," but that one has always confused me a bit. 

On the one hand, it presumably means passionate faith in the Solitary God.  That makes a ton of sense in the Bakkerverse to me given the value of belief.  It's kind of like saying that for the Cishaurim, the are increasing returns to the value of belief.

But on the other hand...presumably there is a ton of passionate belief in the Fanim lands...what makes the Cishaurim able to bear Water?  Are we ever even told that they are of the Few?  If the old adage is "Only the Few can see the Few," and people can't necessarily see the Cish, are they not of the Few?  If that's so, what is it that differentiates the Psukhari from the non-Psukhari within Fanim society?  Is the blinding completely essential but only the older/more experienced know how to wield it upon blinding?  So you'd need to be an initiate not just to be blinded but to be shown the ropes upon blinding? 

I'd totally forgotten to mention Aurang on my list.  He's interesting because we're to presume that he got the Gnosis, but he does a few things that seem pretty unique.

[Madness]

Blinding seems huge.

If the Cishaurim are something different than sorcery, which I think has been suggested, is what they do thaumaturgy (Faith Power) instead?

Can they create?

[Francis Buck]

I think that, whatever the Psukhe is, it's "in a class of its own" so to speak. Thaumaturgy seems immune to aporetics, which would make sense if we interpret Chorae as objects that "correct the World", or force it back into its intended shape, and that's not the case with the Psukhe. I think the Psukhe somehow involves grasping one's own soul and using that as a source of power, which would correlate with the ties to passion and emotion, and also why a Ciphrang is able to yank out the soul of a Cish by literally grabbing the beam of Water.

On the topic of power-levels, one thing I've wondered is how any human sorceror could possibly rival a Nonman. I mean Titirga's described as being middle-aged, but even if we stretch it past credibility and say he's a hundred, the Nonmen are still thousands upon thousands of years older. Are we just to assume that sorcerous strength and age aren't all that related, or is there something special about humans? Even if we consider Titirga a unique case, there are still guys like Seswatha, or Shae, who were powerful as fuck.

[Madness]

I picked thaumaturgy off of Duskweaver and, I think, we had limited that to things that Psatma, Porsparian, the White-Luck Warrior, (possibly, Mimara) seem to affect in Yatwer's stead.

This is why Curethan and I were trying to distinguish between:

Perhaps we could summarize the two alternatives thusly?

A) The modes of sight are different perspectives on the same metaphysical spectrum.

B) The modes of sight are looking at three different metaphysical dimensions.

I think those are decent thoughts on the Psukhe.

Though, I did respond to this in exactly the same way you are suggesting that the Psukhe and thaumaturgy could be the same type of thing.

On the topic of power-levels, one thing I've wondered is how any human sorceror could possibly rival a Nonman. I mean Titirga's described as being middle-aged, but even if we stretch it past credibility and say he's a hundred, the Nonmen are still thousands upon thousands of years older. Are we just to assume that sorcerous strength and age aren't all that related, or is there something special about humans? Even if we consider Titirga a unique case, there are still guys like Seswatha, or Shae, who were powerful as fuck.

Humans seem to be able to make some semantic leaps that the Nonmen cannot?

There are still sorcerous revelations to come, unfortunately for those of us speculating at this point. Bakker can still drop game-changing history or revelations on us. I happen to think that the Consult and Ishterebinthian Quya will still surprise us with their sorcerous innovation.

[Triskele]

Humans seem to be able to make some semantic leaps that the Nonmen cannot?

There are still sorcerous revelations to come, unfortunately for those of us speculating at this point. Bakker can still drop game-changing history or revelations on us. I happen to think that the Consult and Ishterebinthian Quya will still surprise us with their sorcerous innovation.

It is kind of staggering to think about how little of the Nonmen we've actually seen in this series.  They are ever-present in a way in that they're such a part of Earwa's history, and we have seen Kyudea and Cil-Aujas on camera.  But if you take out the TTT appendix, here's all I count:

-Mystery Nonman that is Mek in TDTCB prologue

-Flashback dreams for which I think Mek is the only Nonman to make an appearance?

-Cleric/Nil'giccas; the only Nonman we get any significant onscreen time with

-Nin-sariccas and his cohort coming to parlay

-Quya way off in the distance seen by Eskeles and the Scions

Is that it?  If so, only Cleric has any significant onscreen presence in the story so far.  So the Nonmen and the Consult are sort of similar with that ever-present but rarely seen aspect.  In a way you have to give Bakker credit for that kind of restraint.  Writing a big epic fantasy series and keeping so much of that brimming at the edges but never flowing over.

But you're right.  What might Ishterebinth be like?  What has the last remaining Nonman mansion even been up to?  If there are Intact, what could they have been working on? 

I have a prediction though...I suspect anything is possible culturally or administratively, but I suspect that they have not advanced sorcery much.  I bet you any advancements come from Kellhus.  I'd be happy to be wrong though.

[Madness]

Nonmen are with the Inchoroi and Sranc who the Werigda hunt at the end of TWP.

In a way you have to give Bakker credit for that kind of restraint.  Writing a big epic fantasy series and keeping so much of that brimming at the edges but never flowing over.

Big +1. I remember reading Pat's review of WLW and being all like "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE'S STILL NO CONSULT?!" and throwing my computer .

But you're right.  What might Ishterebinth be like?  What has the last remaining Nonman mansion even been up to?  If there are Intact, what could they have been working on? 

I have a prediction though...I suspect anything is possible culturally or administratively, but I suspect that they have not advanced sorcery much.  I bet you any advancements come from Kellhus.  I'd be happy to be wrong though.

Cannot wait .

I suspect you are wrong, Trisk. Bakker suggested on ZTS that the Ishterebinthian Nonmen were using means both "sorcerous and otherwise" to prolong their sanity.

And certainly the Consult will have sorcerous abilities we've not yet been exposed to, whether or not they are innovations as per the Metagnosis, we'll have to wait and see.

[locke]

I'm guessing the Architect is up there in the top three.  Shaeonanra/Shauriatus also ought to be there.

I imagine that the Architect (aka Elrond) will result in very fascinating tour of Ishterebinth. :-p

[Triskele]

Who is the Architect?  Was he someone barely mentioned somewhere?  False Sun?

[Cüréthañ]

Siqu founder of the Mihtrulic School of the old North, iirc.  Made the Barricades, Agonic collars and other sorcererous artifacts (probably the soul locks at the Coffers too).  Certainly an innovator in the field of sorcery.  Mentioned explicitly in TFS.  Interestingly, Shae's cunning trumped the Barricades, but Mek's stamina/skill was required to counter the glamour.  I have the impression that the Architect did not survive the first apocalypse, but it's a possibility for sure.

Really think that age is important for raw power amongst sorcerers due to the references to attendant 'inertia'.  There seems to be a balance between power, finese and innovation that allows short lived sorcerers like Akka (armed with lateral thinking) to compete with ancient powerhouses like Cleric.  The potential of an ancient Cish might be a frightening revelation.

Aside from Akka, I think all the other Ciphrang were defeated by weight of numbers + chorae.  Daimos should be rated higher than psukhe and standard anagogic sorcery.  It made the SS the premier anagogic school.  Aside from the primaries, the scarlet spires had the upper hand over the Cish, and I think Eli and co were outnumbered when the Nine Incandati jumped them.

[Wilshire]

The Architect was the one that fashioned The Barricades around Golgotterath. Should be in the False Sun.

BTW, on sorcery:

I don't think I ever fully realized this (though it has probably been mentioned in this thread, or elsewhere), but both the gnostic and anagogic school use nonman language in their cants. Check the back of TDTCB in the language section:
"Auja-Gilcunni - The lost "ground tongue of the Nonmen" ->"Gilcunya - Toungue of the Nonmen Quya and the Gnostic Schools" -> "High Kunna - Debased version of Gilcunya, used by the Anagogic Schools of the Three Seas"
Perhaps this draws a line between "sorcery"(shcoolmen) and "thaumaturgy" (water-bearers)

And a quote about witches from the prologue of TDTCB, since there are so few (again probably already written down but it helps me remember if I write it myself):
"There were witches, Leweth had told him, whose urgings could harness the wild agencies asleep in earth, animal and tree."
Witches and trees. Whats with all the trees!