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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« Last post by SmilerLoki on October 21, 2017, 11:58:08 pm »
Lol. No, but, Bakker says something along the lines of Kellhus has become so powerful that his sorcery is indistinguishable from the God.
I don't remember that being about power at all. I took it to be about understanding.

And, knowledge is the root of all power, young SmilerLoki.
If only, on both counts.

An example of knowledge being more or less useless, at least for a while. There is a way to move a watercraft with an engine that has no moving parts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive). It's even gotten a prototype some decades ago. Nonetheless it remains just a scientific peculiarity, because, all its advantages notwithstanding, it's simply not cost-effective. Our civilization is ripe with things like this. I extrapolate that on sorcery.

There are other examples of Markless sorcery it's mentioned quite a few time throughout TUC.
I am quite sure I don't remember all of it, but right now I'm under the impression it was all low key, the Last Whelming levitation-level.

Anyhow, my point was that I do not believe Kellhus needed or considered having Ajokli's power.
That's completely fine, I was mainly interested in your assessment of Kellhus's sorcerous power. Maybe you noticed something I didn't. I most certainly wouldn't be able to recall every instance of Markless sorcery at this time.

I am not totally sure at all that Kellhus knew Ajokli would play a major role, if any in the Golden Room. The dialogue doesn't back it up.
This utterly depends on how to read it, actually.

"Father has entered the Golden Room by himself?", suggests that there was a plan.
There might have been many plans and contingencies, including the one Serwa's referencing. For example, she didn't know about Proyas, while Kayutas did. It was a part of Kellhus's plans regardless.

Oh, and there is no doubt in my mind that Kellhus was the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk the Three-Seas, it's unquestionable in my mind.
The Three Seas, yes. Golgotterath, on the other hand... The Dunsult is a complete unknown in regards to their sorcerous proficiency. Kellhus has a significant edge on the world-born. That edge is gained through his Dunyain nature and training. The Dunsult have that as well, unlike any other characters in the series so far (save Koringhus).
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« Last post by Practical Lobster on October 21, 2017, 11:36:29 pm »
Being the greatest sorcerer in the world is easily undone by one chorae or hell even a sniper shot from an Inchoroi weapon of light. Kellhus couldn't know what he was up against. Makes sense that he'd make a pact with the Pit. No other way to condition the ground of the Ark without surveying it.

Ajokli's assistance was, imo, one hundred percent necessary. Kellhus just assumed ultimate his reason would allow him to maintain control. And then maybe he could betray Ajokli later and run some sort of additional scheme with heads and poles and whatnot.

But it failed.

Anyhow, that's just my two cents, as someone who hasn't gotten so deep into the crazy speculation game and hasn't caught up on all the deeper theories y'all are pondering yet.
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The secret language of Angels - Lisa Gerrard

Check this out, you might like it.

Felt - Primitive Painters
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« Last post by MSJ on October 21, 2017, 10:37:47 pm »
Quote from:  Smilerloki
I don't remember Bakker saying it like that. He named Kellhus the strongest sorcerer (I kinda remember something like that, but can't recall the exact phrasing) before the Dunsult was introduced. Considering Kellhus being able to perform Markless sorcery - which in its described effects was always (?) very low key, - it wasn't even Bakker saying that, it got to us from the ZDC thread, as far as I can tell. I view it as a testament to Kellhus's knowledge, not his strength in battle (the latter, while formidable, still can be attributed to his mastery of the Metagnosis; generally his great feats of sorcery were still Marked, it's instances when there is no Mark that's specifically noted in the narrative).

Knowledge and strength are not the same and do not linearly translate into one another. The fact that Kellhus can do more things doesn't necessarily make him stronger in a confrontation. For all practical purposes many (if not all) of those things can just be tricks. For example, he preferred to continuously Translocate in his aerial battle with Aurang to the form of flying employed in the Last Whelming. Presumably because he could only rise a few feet above the ground, and that's basically it for that particular application of Markless sorcery.

Oh, you sweet summer child...SMH.

Lol. No, but, Bakker says something along the lines of Kellhus has become so powerful that his sorcery is indistinguishable from the God. I'm not Madness, I am not the quote finder. And, knowledge is the root of all power, young SmilerLoki. There are other examples of Markless sorcery it's mentioned quite a few time throughout TUC. Anyhow, my point was that I do not believe Kellhus needed or considered having Ajokli's power.

See, if there was a "pact", I fully expect Kellhus to have done as much deceiving as Ajokli and probably accounted for Ajokli deceiving him, he just didn't know the manner. I am not totally sure at all that Kellhus knew Ajokli would play a major role, if any in the Golden Room. The dialogue doesn't back it up. "Father has entered the Golden Room by himself?", suggests that there was a plan. That plan never came to fruition because of Ajokli inhabiting Kellhus. Oh, and there is no doubt in my mind that Kellhus was the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk the Three-Seas, it's unquestionable in my mind.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« Last post by TheCulminatingApe on October 21, 2017, 09:36:42 pm »
To go back to the thread title, Ajokli is the trickster.  Maybe his motivation is that he finds the whole thing amusing.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« Last post by TheCulminatingApe on October 21, 2017, 09:34:37 pm »
Yea, I have to agree. The Great Ordeal was part of the Thousandfold Thought and where the Thought failed was when Ajokli "forced" Kellhus into the Golden Room ahead of schedule. If they go in with Serwe, Kayutas and whoever else was included in the plans, I believe they succeed. This just was never going to happen, because obviously Kellhus didn't plan for Ajokli to take over as he did. I don't even think he counted on Ajokli giving him divine power.

And in fact the whole thing is stymied when Ajokli stops his foot, trashing the insides of the Ark, and preventing Serwa etc getting into the Golden Room.  Ajokli taking over is surely not part of the plan
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General Misc. / Re: Obligitory music thread. (or What Are You Listening To Right Now)
« Last post by Dora Vee on October 21, 2017, 09:18:52 pm »
The secret language of Angels - Lisa Gerrard
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General Misc. / Re: Obligitory music thread. (or What Are You Listening To Right Now)
« Last post by tleilaxu on October 21, 2017, 09:00:02 pm »
Howls of Ebb - The Arc. The Vine. The Blight.
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Scraping Foetus off the Wheel - The Only Good Christian Is a Dead Christian
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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations
« Last post by SmilerLoki on October 21, 2017, 04:19:49 pm »
Bakker says that Kellhus is the most powerful sorcerer ever by the time they reach the Ark, that basically his sorcery is that of the Gods.
I don't remember Bakker saying it like that. He named Kellhus the strongest sorcerer (I kinda remember something like that, but can't recall the exact phrasing) before the Dunsult was introduced. Considering Kellhus being able to perform Markless sorcery - which in its described effects was always (?) very low key, - it wasn't even Bakker saying that, it got to us from the ZDC thread, as far as I can tell. I view it as a testament to Kellhus's knowledge, not his strength in battle (the latter, while formidable, still can be attributed to his mastery of the Metagnosis; generally his great feats of sorcery were still Marked, it's instances when there is no Mark that's specifically noted in the narrative).

Knowledge and strength are not the same and do not linearly translate into one another. The fact that Kellhus can do more things doesn't necessarily make him stronger in a confrontation. For all practical purposes many (if not all) of those things can just be tricks. For example, he preferred to continuously Translocate in his aerial battle with Aurang to the form of flying employed in the Last Whelming. Presumably because he could only rise a few feet above the ground, and that's basically it for that particular application of Markless sorcery.
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